Office-to-Housing Conversions: What Are the Trends and Opportunities for Canada’s Downtowns?

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From Canadian Urban Institute: You can find transcripts and recordings of today’s and all our webinars at https://canurb.org/citytalk

11:50:48 From Nick Hanson : Welcome everyone! We invite you to say hello in the chat before we get started. Where are you watching from?
11:51:59 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Today’s CityTalk features the following panellists:

Sheila Botting — Principal & President Americas, Professional Services, Avison Young (Toronto)
Thom Mahler — Director, Downtown Strategy, City of Calgary (Calgary)
Jennifer Moore Rattray — Chief Operating Officer, Southern Chiefs’ Organization (Winnipeg)
Hilde Remøy — Associate Professor, Real Estate Management, Delft University of Technology (Delft, Netherlands)
12:01:23 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to CityTalk: Office-to-Housing Conversions:
What Are the Trends and Opportunities for Canada’s Downtowns?
12:02:52 From Daniel McLaren : Do others have audio? Not sure if it’s on my end or not.
12:02:53 From Mary Shaughnessy : North Vancouver BC
12:02:55 From Maisha Barnett To All Panelists : Seattle, WA
12:03:00 From Jamie McCallan : Hi… Montreal, QC
12:03:01 From marwa al waeal To All Panelists : I do have audio!
12:03:01 From Kelly Wojnarski : Hello from Ottawa, ON!
12:03:04 From Elizabeth Lawrence : St. John’s, NL
12:03:05 From Vanessa Baratta To All Panelists : Montreal Qc
12:03:05 From Mike Sacha : Edmonton (Treaty 6)
12:03:08 From Nick Hanson, CUI : We are recording today’s session and will share it online at canurb.org/citytalk-canada/
12:03:08 From Karol Murillo : Hamilton, ON
12:03:09 From Alexandra Miller : Hi from Ottawa
12:03:10 From Jay Deshmukh To All Panelists : Toronto, ON
12:03:11 From Iris Chu : @Daniel: there’s audio available for me
12:03:13 From Gerry Doering : Calgary, AB
12:03:14 From Sandra Miller : Hello from London, Ontario
12:03:15 From Nadia Stolfi To All Panelists : Guelph, ON 🙂
12:03:16 From William Neher : Regina, SK
12:03:19 From Iris Chu : Hello from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
12:03:20 From Brent McAdam : Saskatoon / Treaty 6
12:03:20 From Sue Hallatt : Dialing in from Lkwungen Territory!(Victoria BC)
12:03:20 From Myles Ramsey : Hello from Toronto, ON
12:03:20 From marwa al waeal To All Panelists : Hello from Toronto, ON
12:03:22 From Amy Harrell : Toronto, ON
12:03:22 From Kathleen Dale : Town of Lincoln Ontario
12:03:24 From Emma Cochrane : Hi from Ottawa
12:03:24 From Mikaela Coon To All Panelists : Ottawa, Ca
12:03:25 From paul mackinnon : Hi from Halifax. Frequent City-Talker
12:03:30 From Amarpreet Guliani : Hello from Regina, SK
12:03:32 From Jonathan Delli Colli : Hi from Thorold Ontario
12:03:33 From Reid Pedersen : Regina, Sk
12:03:34 From Alex Adams : Hello from Brampton!
12:03:34 From Brian Pincott To All Panelists : Coming from the Traditional Territy of the Treaty 1 Nations & the Homeland of the Metis Nation. (Winnipeg)
12:03:34 From Rita Melo Reuss To All Panelists : Edmonton, AB
12:03:35 From Michael Cotcher To All Panelists : Regina, SK (Treaty 4)
12:03:38 From Allison Chan To All Panelists : Calgary / Treaty 7
12:03:40 From Andrew Castaneda : London, Ontario
12:03:41 From tyler dixon : Hello from Edmonton
12:03:42 From Anil Yadav To All Panelists : Hello from Calgary Downtown!
12:03:43 From Gracen – CMHC To All Panelists : Hello from Ottawa!
12:03:49 From Cristina P : Hello from Vaughan, ON!
12:03:49 From Mark Hanlon : Hi, from north Greater Toronto Area here.
12:03:52 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Please change your chat settings to “everyone” so that everyone can read your comments.
12:03:54 From Sarah Woodgate : Hi Sarah Woodgate from Calgary Mokinstis!
12:03:58 From Duncan MACLENNAN To All Panelists : Hello from Halifax
12:04:02 From Rita Melo Reuss To All Panelists : Hello from Edmonton
12:04:02 From Andrea Betty : Hi from Penetanguishene, Ontario!
12:04:05 From Brian Pincott : https://us05web.zoom.us/j/87897297559?pwd=VGlKd3RldDYySFMxY3JuVWdnODg3dz09
12:04:54 From Jennifer Chantler : Hello from Barrie, ON!
12:04:55 From Brian Pincott : Coming from the Traditional Territories of the Treaty 1 Nations & the Homeland of the Metis Nation (Winnipeg)
12:05:36 From Katherine Danks : Hello from Toronto
12:05:50 From paul mackinnon : There is a current US Bill called The Downtown Recovery Act (or something similar) that has to do with tax breaks for office to residential conversion. I wonder, is there a Fed Gov’t action to assist in moving this forward in ALL Canadian downtowns, rather than city-by-city?
12:05:52 From David Scrivener To All Panelists : Calling in from Toronto here
12:06:03 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to Jennifer Barrett
Applied Solutions Lead, Senior Planner
Canadian Urban Institute
Ottawa
12:06:09 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Jennifer’s diverse experience in the U.S. and Canada has focused on improving social, environmental and economic sustainability. Jennifer has worked in the public, private and non-profit sectors including affordable housing, land use planning and social development policy creation; land development analysis; community consultation; green industry and economic development initiatives. She strives to improve community engagement to ensure that planning decisions represent the diversity of each community.
Jennifer has received two awards for her planning work as the co-creator of the winning entry for the “Morph My City” Competition for neighbourhood design at the 2012 National Infrastructure Summit in Regina, SK and as a member of a design team whose work was published for the “Edge as Center” urban revitalization competition in Boston, MA. She holds a Master’s degree in Urban Planning from McGill University and is a Registered Professional Planner.
12:07:14 From Mary W Rowe To CUI(privately) : did you unmute me?
12:07:54 From CUI To Mary W Rowe(privately) : likely by accident, sorry
12:10:30 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to Thom Mahler
Director, Downtown Strategy, City of Calgary
12:10:40 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Thom Mahler is the Director leading The City of Calgary’s Downtown Strategy team – the stewards of The City’s $200+ million investment to build a thriving, future-focused downtown.
By advancing Calgary’s Greater Downtown Plan, the team will transform downtown from the traditional 9 to 5 business district to a vibrant city centre by: offering incentives for converting empty office space to residential units and other uses; programming and activating downtown public spaces to promote vibrancy; and kickstarting public space capital projects to support thriving downtown neighbourhoods.
12:12:36 From Brian Pincott : Oh My! I was on Calgary City Council until 2017… oh my!! Pitchforks!! Thom is being…. generous…
12:14:41 From Jennifer Grove : Can someone direct me to where I can find the recordings of the City Talks? I missed the last two that I was hoping to attend!
12:15:31 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to Sheila Botting
Principal & President Americas, Professional Services
Avison Young
Toronto
12:15:38 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Sheila Botting is a member of Avison Young’s Global Real Estate Executive. Throughout her career, Sheila has led a number of multi-disciplinary real estate teams and assignments across the industry with owners, investors and corporate occupiers alike, earning the reputation as one of the “go-to” commercial real estate advisors across the Americas.
Sheila was previously the President of Deloitte Real Estate, where her vision and expertise helped Deloitte to transform its “Workplace of the Future.”
In 2016, Toronto Life named Deloitte Tower Toronto as the “best new office workplace”. As a result, many of the firm’s clients engaged Sheila to transform their own offices and investigate the corporate real estate operating models – including major Canadian financial institutions, government entities and private business.
12:16:51 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Jennifer Grove: you can watch previous videos (and read key takeaways) at https://canurb.org/citytalk-canada/
12:17:36 From Jennifer Grove : Great, thank you so much!
12:20:53 From Victoria Prentice-Funk : I wonder how much of a motivator, commuting is for these employees wanting to stay remote or hybrid… Is there any data on that? For example, if employees had access to reliable/safe/comfortable public transport would they be more inclined to go back to the office?
12:21:23 From paul mackinnon : Please post the Avison Young vitality index link, and is there a Canadian-only version?
12:22:54 From Jennifer Barrett : Here is the Avison Young Vitality Index: https://www.avisonyoung.com/vitality-index/main
12:23:39 From Aline Rahbany : Are there gender differences in this data?
12:24:52 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to Jennifer Moore Rattray
Chief Operating Officer
Southern Chiefs’ Organization
Winnipeg
12:24:58 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Jennifer Moore Rattray is Chief Operating Officer at Southern Chiefs’ Organization (SCO), which represents 34 First Nations and over 81,000 citizens in what is now Manitoba. Jennifer is a proud citizen of Peepeekisis Cree Nation.

Prior to joining SCO, Jennifer was Executive Director of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, and the Assistant Deputy Minister with the Province of Manitoba. Jennifer also served as Associate Vice-President of Indigenous, Government and Community Affairs at the University of Winnipeg.
In 2012, she received the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal for contributions to education and the community. Prior to her career in public service, she was an award-winning journalist, working for CBC, CTV, and other networks in Canada and the US. She is one of the first Indigenous women to anchor the television news in Canada.
12:25:30 From Michael Redhead Champagne To All Panelists : woohoo Winnipeg represent!
12:26:04 From Kate Fenske : As a Winnipegger, I can say we are SO EXCITED about this project Jennifer and her team at SCO is leading!
12:26:18 From paul mackinnon : According to the Avison Young Vitality index, the return to office number for just Canada (urban) is 43.4% (so not much different than US I guess)
12:26:23 From Brian Pincott : Michael Redhead Champagne is an amazing community leader!!
12:26:53 From Mary W Rowe, she/her, CUI/IUC To Michael Redhead Champagne and All Panelists : hey can you share your greeting with Everyone ?
12:27:20 From Brian Pincott : I live 2 blocks from the HBC building that SCO is converting. It is going to be an amazing addition to our community!
12:27:41 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Read more about transition of Hudson’s Bay building in Winnipeg: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-bay-building-sco-redevelopment-1.6428275
12:27:56 From Michael Redhead Champagne To All Panelists : Its great to hear that there are plans for family units, so important if we are gonna reduce the number of indigenous kids in care
12:29:01 From Nick Hanson, CUI : When posting in the chat, make sure the blue button says “Everyone” (if it doesn’t, you can click the little triangle and change the setting)
12:29:14 From marwa al waeal : Love that!
12:29:16 From Michael Redhead Champagne : https://fearlessr2w.ca/housing-solutions
12:29:48 From Sandra Miller : Incredible project on so many levels!
12:30:00 From Michael Redhead Champagne : its great to hear there are plans for amily units, so important if we are going to reduce the number of Indigenous kids in care
12:30:33 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Welcome to Hilde Remøy
Associate Professor
Delft University of Technology
Delft, Netherlands
12:30:36 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Hilde Remøy is associate professor of Real Estate Management at Delft University of Technology. Her research area is adaptive reuse of real estate, focusing on the triple bottom line: economic, societal and environmental issues related to vacant premises and adaptive reuse into housing.
Hilde studied architecture and graduated at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology. She worked as an architect at different Dutch architecture offices from 2000 – 2005. In 2005, she joined the TU Delft and completed her PhD thesis “Out of Office”, on office vacancy and residential conversion at the TU Delft in 2010. Since 2009, she has coordinated and taught several different post graduate courses, focusing on adaptive re-use.
Hilde has published more than 70 articles and book chapters on the topics of office vacancy, adaptive re-use and land use policy.
12:31:11 From Jennifer Moore Rattray, SCO : Here is more information on our SCO HBC project: https://scoinc.mb.ca/a-new-future-wehwehneh-bahgahkinahgohn/
12:31:17 From Sarah Woodgate : Hudson Bay. Exciting project in an iconic building! Thanks for sharing. I am curious about the funding sources. Sarah Woodgate from Calgary.
12:32:48 From Sharon Irven : Sound keeps fading in and out..
12:34:16 From Jennifer Moore Rattray, SCO : Sarah, federal treaty partner (CMHC) and provincial and municipal treaty partners as well as other donors. We are a non-profit and have just incorporated as a charity so we can work with additional funders.
12:37:17 From ben larson To All Panelists : For Sheila and the panel, given the reduced demand for office space and adaptive rethink of space, why are some cities like Toronto, still pursuing planning policies with a no-net loss of office space when converting or redeveloping mixed use properties. You could achieve more residents and still keep needed (reduced in size) office space and keep people living and working in the same building or place. Thoughts?
12:42:24 From Jay Deshmukh : Good to hear affordable housing enter the discussion. Are any of you seeing conversion projects aimed at student housing?
12:42:57 From paul mackinnon : Kate is Great!
12:42:58 From Briar de Lange-Riddell To All Panelists : Conversions from office to residential will impact property taxes. In Toronto, the ratio is about 5 to 2. As much as more housing is required, how will cities balance out the short fall in property tax collection by converting office space to residential?
12:43:06 From Greg Spencer : https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/foot-traffic-steadily-rising-across-canadian-cities-new-data-shows/ar-AA12FzYf
12:43:10 From Brian Pincott : Yes, she is great!
12:43:44 From paul mackinnon : Is CentreVenture involved? What about CDLC in Calgary? How important is a land development corp of some sort to getting things done?
12:44:29 From Victoria Prentice-Funk : How does TIF impact schools in the area of development?
12:44:44 From Mary Huang : would the chat be shared? some great info there
12:44:49 From Kate Fenske : Why thank you folks! Through our Downtown Recovery efforts, we were able to secure a new TIF program with the City of Winnipeg for affordable housing projects downtown and city-wide ($20M for downtown) as well as another $10M in TIF for ec dev projects including surface parking lots and heritage buildings.
12:44:52 From Kate Fenske : https://www.winnipegaffordablehousingnow.ca/#:~:text=Tax%20Increment%20Financing%20(TIF)%20Grants%20will%20be%20awarded%20to%20approved,for%20developments%20outside%20the%20Downtown.
12:45:44 From Kate Fenske : https://www.winnipegtif.ca/
12:46:17 From Mary W Rowe, she/her, CUI/IUC : chat gets posted 🙂
12:46:21 From Thom Mahler : WE have also streamlined approval process – generally no development permits required for conversion projects. And if a permit required – we do it fast – first project that needed a development permit was processed in 20 days.
12:46:47 From Brent McAdam : What’s the timeframe for completion of CUI’s office conversions project and reporting of findings?
12:46:49 From Kate Fenske : Thom you’re making us jealous in Winnipeg! 😉
12:47:16 From Karol Murillo : Thom – impressive figures. How many conversion projects to date?
12:47:33 From Thom Mahler : You will get there Kate!!
12:49:10 From Thom Mahler : We have 5 agreements in place and 3 more very close for a total of 8 – then there are 2 more that were approved outside of our program, but similar grant levels. Most are just about to start construction.
12:49:35 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Mary Huang: the chat will be available review when the CityTalk video is posted https://canurb.org/citytalk-canada/
12:49:44 From Jennifer Barrett : CUI’s project completion aiming for early 2023.
12:49:56 From Lorne Cutler : In Ottawa a B-class building has recently been converted to apartments, The Slatr. Prices for apartments are $2000 -$3000 range. If Federal government decides to give up some of its owned (rather than leased) downtown offices. if they want to see any measure of affordable housing, they will have to transfer the buildings at almost no cost. Other than a government, who is going to give up an unused building for free?
12:50:16 From eddie romero : Thom, I heard you say that there are 1k new residences being added, but how many square feet of office were removed? I missed that figure. Thanks!
12:50:49 From Thom Mahler : It is about 1million square feet of office removed so far.
12:51:38 From Karol Murillo : Thank you. Great job! Maybe a tour in the future to see these projects once completed?
12:51:47 From Brian Pincott : Calgary had more vacant office space than the total of office space in Vancouver.. is that number coming down, Thom?
12:52:35 From Mark Hanlon : As “planners” do we not need to look at sustainable mix-use mix of development. If there is a significant / uncontrolled shift of redevelopment of downtown office space to residential could result in a reverse commute situation for the 40-50% of employees still remain in the office one or more days? I am not saying, there is not opportunity, however, what is the long term sustainable mix of building types.
12:52:40 From Sandra Miller : Why not mixed use areas? Time to move forward and re-think cities!
12:52:47 From paul mackinnon : Are we seeing more residential developments with larger common work space?
12:53:06 From Thom Mahler : Barely Brian – absorptions are picking up, but some space still coming back to the market – Vacancy rates went down 0.8 percent last quarter – best number in years.
12:54:14 From Brian Pincott : Wow! Close to 10 years since the Calgary crunch started!
12:54:16 From Michael Redhead Champagne : can SCO buy Portage place too?
12:54:29 From Sarah Woodgate : Calgary also had an over suppy of commercial before covid. There is so much opportunity for attracting young Canadians to these areas. Hotel conversion too there was one affordable housing hotel to residential acquisition. What an opportunity to reinvent our Downtowns. Mixed use mixed income is key. Thom and his team are doing amazing innovative work! Thanks for this discussion today.
12:54:53 From Brian Pincott : Ohhh.. Michael.. Yes, SCO taking Portage Place would be awesome!
12:55:18 From Michael Redhead Champagne : I trust Indigenous leadership to renew downtowns in Canada <3
12:56:14 From Michael Gordon : Please define ‘affordable housing.’ Research shows only 3% of housing being built now in major cities is affordable for households living in core need.
12:56:50 From Jennifer Moore Rattray, SCO : Deep thanks to our amazing Grand Chief and Chiefs for leading our redevelopment work – all credit to them and their leadership 🙂 !
12:57:27 From Ezra Wasser : Not enough time for this, but should we be thinking about reusing commercial buildings for the institutional sector (schools, universities, college, places of worship, etc) and social third places?
12:58:12 From Jennifer Moore Rattray, SCO : Our housing will be deeply affordable … and sustainable. We know due to economic apartheid that many of our families and citizens cannot afford traditionally “affordable” rents.
12:58:31 From David Scrivener To All Panelists : If monocultures make bad neighbourhoods, but the investment climate encourages it — how can we get an investment climate that encourages a positive outcome of mixed-use development?
12:58:34 From Jay Deshmukh : This has been our proposal, Ezra, and we’re working on some conversions from office to institutional (research space).
12:58:55 From Susie Kim-McMullen : Will a transcript of this webinar be available?
12:59:08 From paul mackinnon : Great point. In NS, the provincial govt task force on housing is focusing only on expediting sprawl style development. No interest in urban residential really.
12:59:14 From Jennifer Moore Rattray, SCO : And an amazing First Nation architect, Reanna Merasty, is leading our design!
12:59:30 From Sandra Miller : Cities have to be the leaders because provincial and federal seem to be too slow and stuck. Everything should be on the table for adaptive re-use options.
12:59:36 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Susie Kim-McMullen: yes, the transcript will be shared https://canurb.org/citytalk-canada/
12:59:39 From Duncan MACLENNAN To All Panelists : Thank you all so much, great discussion. Similar issues in Australia and UK right now, governments really slow to see. Duncan Maclennnan
12:59:47 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Please join us in thanking all of our guest panellists today:
• Sheila Botting — Principal & President Americas, Professional Services, Avison Young (Toronto)
• Thom Mahler — Director, Downtown Strategy, City of Calgary (Calgary)
• Jennifer Moore Rattray — Chief Operating Officer, Southern Chiefs’ Organization (Winnipeg)
• Hilde Remøy — Associate Professor, Real Estate Management, Delft University of Technology (Delft, Netherlands)
13:00:02 From marwa al waeal : Thank you guys!!
13:00:18 From Sarah Woodgate : thank-you!
13:00:19 From Irena Kohn : Thank you – super helpful!
13:00:46 From Karol Murillo : Great discussion. Thank you!
13:01:37 From Nick Hanson, CUI : Join us for our next CityTalk: “Why Would Anyone Run for Municipal Office?” on Thursday, October 13. RSVP at https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/register/6716650630831/WN_lVqcwOahSLWk58JyjkBC9w
13:01:44 From Iris Chu : Thank you all!
13:01:48 From David Scrivener : Thanks all!
13:01:49 From eddie romero : Thank you all!
13:01:54 From Susie Kim-McMullen : Thanks very much
13:01:59 From Sandra Miller : Thank you to everyone – so inspiring! Let’s do this!!
13:02:01 From Mikaila Montgomery : Thank you for the discussion!
13:02:02 From Muna Huq : Such an interesting conversation, thanks a lot!
13:02:04 From Kate Fenske : Thanks all!
13:02:09 From Alex Smiciklas : Excellent chat – thanks everyone!
13:02:18 From Holden Blue : Thanks again everyone for the great chat!
13:02:22 From Alexandra Miller : thank you!
13:02:27 From Sarah Woodgate : happy thanksgiving!
13:02:27 From Mohamad Berry : Thank you!