How investments in main streets support resilience, recovery, and equitable prosperity for local communities.

Full Panel
Transcript

Note to readers: This video session was transcribed using auto-transcribing software.  Questions or concerns with the transcription can be directed to events@canurb.org with “transcription” in the subject line.

Mary W Rowe Hi everybody, it’s Mary Rowe. Honestly, I just want to thank our producer, Wendy Rowland for this beautiful music that she puts on. It’s fantastic for us to be able to benefit from just a little bit of peace and quiet. Here we are, heading into a long weekend. I hope it’s a long weekend for most of you. It is for us here at CUI. We are so looking forward to a break, as I know my colleagues are. So thank you for joining us for a really terrific gathering of folks, as I say, on the edge of a long weekend here, taking the time to be part of a discussion about Why Main Streets Matter. I happen to be in Toronto today, as you can … Well, you can’t really see, but that’s Toronto out there. And, this is the traditional territory of … well, as we know in Canada, Inuit, Métis and First Nations peoples, and we are very conscious of the extent to which urbanism has constrained the expression of ancestral rights. And how do we actually address that? So I call on all of us to try to be reflective about this. And particularly when you think about Main Streets, and the Indigenous experience of the Gathering Place. Toronto happens to be the ancestral territory, traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples, and home to many First Nations, as I mentioned. And we actually are … we actually do have treaties here, the Williams Treaty and Treaty 13. But we have people across the country, unceded territories, no treaties. So in that context of an awareness of where these lands actually, who actually are the stewards of these lands, who has been and who needs to be in the future and how we collectively come to terms with that. So what an interesting way for us to think about our main streets. I was suggesting to somebody early this morning that and I know people on this chat that, you know, the, city talk chat community has a life of its own and, which you’ll all prove to me today again, as usual, because you’re going to have all sorts of interesting conversations happening in tandem to what we have online. But one of the things that, I have been reminded of is when you look at the public realm in any community, any city, and take the percentage of the publicly owned land that’s actually a street, it’s a lot, and someone on the chat is going to know exactly what it is, some percentage that’s impressive. If you do know, put it on. Because it is the … We always say at CUI, we’re about downtowns, the hearts and main streets, which are the connective tissue then, the, distribution system, the circulatory system of a city. And, how important these two units of analysis are. So here we are, to talk to some folks specifically about why main streets matter and how investments in main streets can support resilience, recovery, inclusion, equitable prosperity in local communities. And one of the things that I love about Main Streets is pretty much everybody knows where theirs is. And, and we define it differently. And the main street doesn’t actually look the same in every community, but it works at all scales. So if you live in a city like this, which is a couple million people, you still have a main street that you relate to or you’re aware of, and you might visit somebody else’s main street. And if you are in a small community of 800 people or 1500 people or a couple of thousand, you know your main street is too. And it’s a really useful exercise for us to try to ground ourselves in where we go for a sense of attachment, belonging, economic exchange, meaning, and all the things that attract us. And during the pandemic, we developed a different kind of relationship to our main street. And now, as we continue to emerge and look at the implications of that, what does that mean for how we invest, how public policies are being shaped, how private investment is being directed and how we all spend our own money. So, that’s the conversation for today – is to talk about what we’re seeing. And specifically we’re going to start a little bit on, the My Main Street Program, because that is present at this moment, this very moment, in southern Ontario. So I’m going to ask all our panel gang to, put their cameras on so you can see them and as you know, please feel free to pop a question into the chat. I know I can see people signing in from where they are. It’s always helpful for us to see where people are coming in from. And if you’ve got specific topics or questions that you want this esteemed group of people to respond to, I’m sure they’ll be happy to. So put it in the chat and I’ll make sure I direct it to them. And for us to just remember that everything that you put in the chat we publish, and these conversations that we have now, also will get posted in a couple of days. So if you want to watch it again, you can. And if you want to share it with friends and colleagues, you can do that too. So, as the various Hollywood squares start to size up in the screen here, we’ll get a chance to … Let’s hear from Lindsay first, who is administering the My Main Street Program, which is a program supported by the, Southern Ontario Federal Development … Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario, which is the regional development agency for Southern Ontario, Government of Canada. And, she is … I can’t believe she’s vertical, because e she is dealing with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of inquiries and applications. And it was a bit of a nasty thing that the deadline for My Main Street is this weekend, a long weekend, so no long weekend for the My Main Street staff. Sorry, Lindsay, but the important thing about this, and just for the rest of the country who are listening. This is a pilot program in southern Ontario. But as I say, the concept of Main Street, we all have one, and we all care, I hope, at least I’m sure people on this call will … care about what kinds of places we’re making, so that we can actually have vibrant main streets. And all the folks that are on this call are engaged in that kind of work in some way. So, Lindsay, why don’t you off the top, just orient people a little bit to what’s happening with the My Main Street team. And then we will have a chance to talk to our other folks who work in all sorts of different circumstances. Over to you, Lindsay.

Lindsay Webster Thanks, Mary. Yeah, so it’s a really exciting and very busy time in the program. We opened for applications for this round, on February 22nd. And as Mary mentioned, we do close at the end of the month. So on March 31st. We are very excited to be delivering another round of my Main Street programing. As Mary mentioned, this is funded through Fed Dev Ontario. It’s a $15 million investment – $6.5 million of those dollars will be funneled directly into the hands of small business owners across southern Ontario. $6.5 million also delivered to not-for-profit community organizations who will be taking on placemaking initiatives, again across southern Ontario. So we’re really excited to kind of see the program take shape this time round. We’ve had a fantastic amount of interest. We’re sitting at over 1400 applications, the business sustainability stream. So that would be sort of the, as I mentioned, the mechanism by which we are delivering funds to the small business owners across Ontario. And we have about 100 applications to the community activator program. So we’re very excited. We’ve been able to review some of these applications as we’ve seen them come through. A lot of really exciting projects that we are excited to kind of support and see realized, through the support of our funding. So, exciting times. And our team is ready and at their keyboards to answer your questions, if you do have some, there’s a short window of time. So please reach out to us if you do have interest or questions on the program.

Mary W Rowe So just to be clear here, this is the … You’ve got three more days. I think the deadline is the 31st of March [it is] so in between whatever, and I should acknowledge that this is a religious observance for a number of folks, Ramadan and Easter, and, so, we appreciate that, as I say, the timing is not ideal, but these deadlines get set by circumstances over which we have limited control. So … but, again, the idea that there are two different kinds of ways through this version of the My Main Street program, two different kinds of ways, Lindsay, to strengthen the main street. One is to strengthen the businesses that operate on the main street. And the other is to create activities and events and improvements and investments that bring more people to the main street. So it’s somehow people and commerce together, huh?

Lindsay Webster It is. It’s definitely sort of a cross-section of those priorities. And really with the concept that they build into one another, they’re highly integrated. And as much as we can sort of. Enhance both of those things at the same time. It really supports the initiatives and the priorities of both. So they’re highly interrelated.

Mary W Rowe You know, I always remind people that cities exist because of commercial life. You know, the reason cities formed up was because it was an opportunity to trade and exchange. And it was like, you know, if you think of the history of urban settlements of any kind, settlements, even small settlements, you came to trade goods or exchange goods. It was a commercial, impetus that brought communities and cities together. So this marrying of economic opportunity, and we know that 70% of the country is employed in a small or medium enterprise, and of that a large percentage are on main streets. And we also know that almost 80% of Canadians live within 500 or 600m of the main street. They can walk to it if they if they were able to. So this idea of it being a kind of, piece of critical infrastructure, economic infrastructure, but also social infrastructure. Which is why this program is so interesting. And we’ve got three folks here that are very specific, have very specific knowledge of, this effort to try to do both people and commercial life in … Through the My Main Street program. Omer, you’re now in a new incarnation, but I’m going to go to you first, to just talk a little bit about from your perspective and in your current role … So maybe you could explain your history with this, but also what you’re doing now. And then I’ll go from you to Sonia, Janette, and then, the gentlemen – the two esteemed architect/planners will come in and, provide some overview of their perspective and their work around  different jurisdictions. So, Omer, first to you and then I say, Janette and Sonia.

Omer Ismael Thank you so much, Mary and Lindsay. Hi, everyone, my name is on Omer Ismael. I’m an economic development officer at the City of Toronto. A lot of what I’m hearing …

Mary W Rowe You weren’t always Omer, you weren’t always …

Omer Ismael Absolutely. A lot of what I’m hearing is bringing me flashbacks to my time at My Main Street actually, just not too long ago, where I was involved with the local business accelerator, which is transformed into a new and improved, you know, iteration of supports being provided to small businesses that Lindsay has mentioned. But yeah, the work of main streets is incredibly, important and relevant to me. I’ve been spending the last few years since the pandemic directly focused on that work. And, you know, each year I feel like I’m learning more and more about the different ways main streets provide value and the different ways we can support them. So happy to be part of this call and looking forward to sharing more and learning more.

Mary W Rowe I’m interested Omer, from your perspective, when you look at what’s going on in main streets in Toronto and, in this case, My Main Street last iteration didn’t include Toronto, but now it does. What are you seeing? Remember you’ve got listeners here from all across the province and all across the country. We’ve got some Americans on … welcome Americans, always like having Americans. What are you seeing? Just paint a bit of a picture of what you think the challenges are to main streets right now.

Omer Ismael Yeah, it’s an interesting thing because, you know, I feel like we all look at it through the lens of, since Covid and I’ve even referenced it in my introduction. But I think there’s an interesting lens to consider of the value, one that you kind of reference, Mary, of the value that main streets bring. How they shape cities. And sometimes cities are formed around, the commerce that individual main streets provide to its residents and surrounding residents. But the main streets across the province and likely Canada, have been experiencing a lot of challenges that they’ve learned to find ways to adapt through, whether it be technological challenges, challenges around accessing new ways of, you know, selling and providing services to their customers, whether it be through technology or otherwise. And then other challenges, you know, that vary and I feel like can go on forever on that. But I think the interesting thing is that, you know, now, the challenge that we’re all really spending a lot more energy on is how to, you know, really come back to the main streets. As you know, we have once seen the value of but then the pandemic specifically provided a new lens of ideas and ways that people can engage with main streets, shop locally, support businesses, learn about the businesses in their neighborhood. And it really provided that hyperlocal lens of the small business and the areas that they are part of, whether they be BIAs or etc. So, I think you know what I’m noticing since I’ve, you know, had my experience with My Main Street, but also I’m seeing specifically in the city of Toronto, is there’s a diverse need based on the business make up, the communities make up that part of the city that the main streets have for support, guidance and also the value that they can bring. And I think the most important thing that I’ve been seeing in my short term at the city of Toronto just a few months now has been, you know, the range of ways of addressing those needs. So, my role at the city is, part of this larger initiative called  the Main Street Recovery Rebuild Initiative, which is also, as, Mary mentioned, funded by the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario. And we are looking at funding and supporting main streets and businesses through many different lenses. So under that MRRI, program, there are actually seven other programs that support and serve main streets and their businesses in different ways. Well, one would be the Café TO Property Improvement Program, which supports many businesses in expanding their, you know, patio and service offerings onto curbside opportunities for small businesses, as well as the Mainstreet Innovation Fund, which is once again coming up with new ways of piling the challenges that the local main street in one area of the city may face, while it’s entirely … You know, one area next to it, may be experiencing a different challenge, but looking to pilot a different project as well. So, you know, I think the challenges that … I think the one that I would really highlight is the diversity of the needs, based on regions, community make up, business make up and what those neighborhoods are really known for.

Mary W Rowe Yeah. You know, again, I’d encourage people to put in the chat what are you seeing on your main street? And just heads up, if you’re an applicant to My Main Street, and you’ve got a particular question, go to the My Main Street website. There are FAQs there. There’s a whole bunch of places and initiate a conversation directly with My Main Street, because I’m concerned that we won’t, here, have the right technical information to respond to you. So if you’ve got a very specific question – Lindsay can try to respond in the chat, but, she’s got a whole team of folks that are … “operators are standing by”, you know, who will be able to give you very specific information about, clarity about what it is you’re applying for and whether or not you’re eligible and all that kind of stuff. Thanks, Omer. I think the point you’re making, which is really valuable, is that even though we may all have a main street, they are not all actually the same. They don’t have … They all have different kinds of challenges. And they have a different market reach. Right? And we noticed … we did, some of you remember in the early days of the pandemic, we started something called Bring Back Main Street, and we did some block studies to see who was this is 2021. And we looked to see which main street businesses were doing better. And what we found were that the main street businesses that had a very dedicated local clientele, you know, you could walk, I mean, we’ve all got stories about this where you suddenly … you established a much closer relationship with a vendor that was a block or two from you and that you could safely go and make a purchase, or you might have made a purchase online, but you go pick it up. That’s what I do with my bookstore. I order online, then I walk to the bookstore. So we know that there were examples of that, that it strengthened it. We also know, though, that there can be on main streets, unique businesses that do attract people from other places, and they come specifically for a particular kind of service. So this idea of a really embedded local market that comes to you regularly, and then the other is … or you have a highly specialized product and you cultivate folks to know about you and come at a distance. And I shared an anecdote last week or two weeks ago in one of these about a store in Ottawa that, a clothing store I went in, didn’t see what I wanted, went online, saw what I wanted, and then they said, “yeah, just let us know and we will bring it into the store”. So this new relationship that’s evolving between online and bricks and mortar, and that we don’t have to sacrifice one for the other, we can somehow have a combination. Janette, let’s go to you now. You’ve got, again, a wide … I was just in your hometown. I was in London earlier this week, talking to all sorts of folks about main street businesses and the economy in London.

Mary W Rowe And, so your name was taken never in vain …. a few times, but why don’t you tell people where you’re at and how you’re engaging now and a little bit about your history, and then tell us what you’re seeing in terms of the main streets that you’re talking to.

Janette MacDonald Okay. Well, I come from a very different background than Omer, but … Hi, Omer, nice to see you again. I was 17 years in the downtown London BIA, so that’s where I get most of my knowledge about main street businesses and challenges. And you know how cities, you know, plan their downtown, invest in their downtown and what the outcomes are. And just to quickly speak about investment in downtowns like, it’s something cities cannot stop doing, is investing in their main streets and their downtowns. It’s kind of like your adult child who’s going to stay at home with you and never leave. You have to keep taking care of them. And if you keep feeding the golden goose, the golden goose is going to keep laying eggs because generally speaking, your main street is in the highest tax bracket in the city or the highest mill-rate in the city. And if they can afford to pay their taxes, it benefits the rest of the city. And that’s something that councils need to be taking a look at when they’re looking at budgets for downtowns. Capital investments are fantastic. Lots of them in London. But we need operating and maintenance budgets to go with them. You can’t just, you know, make the baby and then let the baby, you know, deal for itself. But basically small businesses –  it’s been my passion for a long, long time. Even previous to being in downtown London I was a banker and I loved dealing with small businesses and being able to help them grow their business. So I understand it from very, very many aspects and most recently, well, in 2021, I was the community manager for the first iteration of the My Main Street Community Activator and really enjoyed myself speaking with my colleagues all over Southern Ontario. It was wonderful. But since then I’m now a hired gun I guess. I work for a company called My Connects who issues downtown gift cards. And it’s actually a local currency. It’s a private label, closed looped Visa gift card that can only be redeemed within your community. So lots of places in Ontario have them. Lots of places all over the UK, Ireland, Canada, the United States have this program now. We have over 220 live programs. And it’s really wonderful because you can measure the success of the program, you know, real time redemption information plus overspend information. So you can actually measure the amount of money that’s going into your economy. And it really helps the small businesses because let’s face it, they’re the first ones to suffer when anything happens like a pandemic and it takes them a lot longer to recover. So anything we can do to put, as we used to say in BIA land … You know, feet on the street, bums on seats and money in the tills. And that’s precisely what this local currency does. But, you know, beyond that, I’m also working for a company called Live, Work, Learn, Play. And we’re doing a really interesting … For me it’s feeding my soul from downtown revitalization work in Saint Thomas, the city Mary was referring to about the Volkswagen battery plant going there. And we’re actually working for a private developer right now, but we’re really hoping it’s going to come in to be a secondary plan for Saint Thomas so that we’re ready for the influx of employees and residents that are going to come into that area. And are we ready to give them places to go and gather and, you know, meet each other on a Saturday? You know, besides the market and a couple of coffee shop, there needs to be a lot more public space. And when the public space is well-maintained and kept clean and, you know, clean and safe, more people will go there. And I think people … Economically, small businesses make up such a huge part of our economy. But emotionally, the ties that we have to those  local businesses, like I never go downtown with visiting a few of my favorite, but I’m not going to mention them because I’m going to create favorites and I still get accused of that, but anyway …

Mary W Rowe You’ve taken me to them. I know the story.

Janette MacDonald Yeah. I’ve taking you … Yeah, I’ve taken you to them. And you always, you always find out who’s you know, who has the good coffee and who has the free wine. But that’s part of the experience is you … Is, it’s not a transaction, it’s absolutely an experience and it’s a relationship you build. And that is sadly lacking these days in the online shopping world and the work at home. Like, you know, we really need to get people back in the office so that clientele can return. And uh …

Mary W Rowe It’s interesting the point you’re making around … the My Connects, the company that you work for, is about creating a very easy way to get money to circulate locally. So you drop it locally and then it recirculates locally. And I think this is … A lot of people in the chat are saying that how do we actually pull money down and keep it circulating. And that’s one mechanism available to you. Janette in terms of what you’re observing, any changes that you’re seeing in the Main Street dynamic. In the first part of 2024, anything that we need to be paying attention to that’s different.

Janette MacDonald Yeah, I think, I mean, this has always been ongoing, but it’s going to be ongoing for a long time as the growth of the homeless population on the streets. And I see a lot of people with their doors locked and we never saw that before. Not in … [The business?] The businesses have their doors locked. Yeah. So you have to ring a bell or bang on the door to get in. And that really creates a barrier, that creates friction to go into a store. Because if you’re banging on the door and nobody answers are they open, are they closed, you know, so you don’t really know what’s going on. And in some small businesses, they might very well be closed and they don’t really keep regular hours. So, you know, like meet us all halfway … Open, like during a business day and, you know, like, stay open. We have a fabulous antique store in London and it was like four storeys high, some of the best antiques you could ever see. And it was never open. It was almost like a hobby. So I mean, that makes it really difficult for people to trust in the downtown. That’s where the malls have it over the, you know, the small business areas, as they can … They open at ten and they close at six or whatever the regular hours are. And they can mandate that. You can’t mandate a small business to stay open.

Mary W Rowe Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, that’s one of the things I like about it is that we don’t we’re not … (inaudible) on the main street. But I hear you, we’ve got to (inaudible) … And I just want to thank all the people who are chiming in on the chat. And I see some of our colleagues like, hi Amy, who’s, here from BC local, great to have people from across the country. Can I ask you, when you’re making your comments, to double check to make sure you’re saying it to everyone? So, Amy, you’ve posted something about Vancouver, but it’s only gone to hosts and panelists. Can you repost so everybody gets to see what you’re observing in Vancouver? And, I think the important thing is that we’re starting to see all these other economic pressures, interest rates, labor demands, shortage of staff, different kinds of regulatory requirements. You know, you can sort of … It’s as if we all woke up and everybody’s suddenly putting new rules in and new places, and now it’s got to … The patio has to look like that. And it is a very chaotic environment. So again, it’s back to the challenges that we all experience, in terms of you want to have some kind of a regularized environment, just as you were suggesting, Janette, we want to know when stores are opening, and when they don’t. But at the same time, we don’t want to dampen the kind of sort of unusual, unique features that we see. And that’s one of the challenges. Sonya, I’m going to come to you next with the beautiful backdrop. Again, somebody who’s got long experience with the My Main Street program and now in a different role. Tell us a little bit about Unionville and what you’re seeing on your main street. We actually did the launch in Unionville, you were on a couple of months ago talking about that. So tell us what you’re seeing in terms of the changes on Main Street.

Sonia Chow Hello, everyone. My name is Sonia Chow. I’m the executive director, at the Unionville Business Improvement Area. And, prior to this position, I was with the My Main Street program, served as the ambassador for two local business areas in Markham, Ontario. So these two business areas are very different. One is more for our Chinese community or Asian community. And then for the main street, Unionville – is more a historic district where we have different visitors or local residents shop to our main street during the week and weekends. So, it’s a really challenging, main street to manage, just like other main streets, I would say. We found we have limited foot traffic and then, maybe the parking constraints and also high turnover rate of businesses, right after pandemic because people may shop online. And then the business owner also faced different challenges when they operate their business with … or just on their own. And then, they tried to have their business with … that can able to shop locally, but at the same time attract visitors away from our communities to come. So … But I do think main street businesses is a backbone for the community that people will gather and then share their experiences all the time. Yeah.

Mary W Rowe Yeah. I mean, this is the challenge that you’ve got and you’ve got an interesting, particular situation in Unionville where you have a historic downtown which has a certain kind of look to it. Just very appealing. But you’ve also got other main streets in the Unionville, Markham area that that have a different history. And so do you find there, as was being suggested by Omer. Are the needs that different, Sonia, in terms of what these streets need?

Sonia Chow I would say yes. Every main street is unique. For main street, Unionville it’s actually located like the central of City of Markham, in Markham. So, we found we have like, our historical, like the, Go Train station there. And then, the street is more like, the historic, resident houses. Yeah. So people may look for something different, to main street, Unionville, to other main streets or other shopping malls. And then, our residents … We did a couple of surveys asking the expectations from our residents. So they are expecting, like, more events and then, like, accessible parking or how they can come easily, like increasing the foot traffic, something like that. So I would say, our main street had  something really different that, people are expecting differently, not just shop local, but also during the weekends they love to come, to enjoy the summer, and attend any festivals or any, events on the street. But at the same time, we have a micro street. We … every time when we organize event, we want to close the street, but we found there is like, high road closure costs that we need to comply, in order to make sure the safety and everything on the street.

Mary W Rowe Yeah, I mean, I’m seeing people in the chat commenting about this public safety piece. This is really critical that it’s a deterrent. We really have that in terms of downtown’s, the main streets downtowns, people are concerned that they don’t feel safe. And so I’m going to ask Adam and Dorian to come on, together, because they both work in a professional capacity around the built environment. And what we’re … it’s interesting in the chat also and Sonia just mentioned it. Transit investments, guys. So you both are professionals working in this field, and we know that we’re spending enormous amounts of infrastructure money around cities around North America. And both of you work in Canada and in the US. And we’re investing in transit hubs and we’re investing in these … And do we have the right kind of integrated strategy to make sure that if you do those huge investments that you maintain the fine grain independent business mix, or as some people are flagging in the chat, if a main street gets redeveloped, and there’s housing put on it, for instance, multi-unit housing, invariably we seem to lose the independent mom and pop shops, and we seem to get either vacant empty ground floors or a chain. Yeah. So, Adam, do you want to start? And then Dorian, really glad to have both of you on and interested your perspectives.

Adam Lubinsky Yeah, absolutely, great to be here as the resident New Yorker on board. But we do now have a small office in Toronto. So I think what you’re describing is, a situation that’s coming up a lot in New York and, other cities where, there are instances of light rail extensions being planned. You know, New York has a subway that’s being extended and they’re being coupled with re-zonings. And so they’re looking at creating more density, which I think, you know, on a basic level, can be great for main streets. And we’ve gotten involved in a number of instances in that re-zoning. We’ve been working on the kind of regulatory side of like, you know, how can we try to build into policy ways of ensuring that you have small and potentially independent businesses. So there are some great examples from New York, including one that I worked on in East Harlem, New York, where we were prescribing the size of commercial units. And so that’s been … there’s been a big effort, with the last ten years or so in New York, starting on the Upper West Side, where really trying to keep out – in New York, the big challenge has been large banks, large real estate agents occupying ground floor space or pharmacies, and really trying to ensure that the commercial units stay small. So I’ll just lead with that. But there are a number of other instances where – if there’s redevelopment that’s tied to transportation investment, you can find ways of addressing it.

Mary W Rowe I mean, I have such ambivalence about this because of course, we all want banks and we want to have financial services available to residents. And whether you’re a business customer or residential customer, you want … And I’m sad to see banks leaving main streets because I feel like it’s like a post office, that it was a place where you would have some kind of relationship, and now we just go to the ATM, take our cash or whatever, and so I want banks to stay on main streets. But at the same time, as you suggest, if they go into those new developments and they’re the only tenant that can afford whatever the rent is, and invariably it’s a lot of square footage with not much activity. So when you say you’re prescribing smaller spaces, Adam, are you actually … You’re saying the only way to deter large sort of chains going in, is to actually have some kind of zoning restrictions so that you just, they just can’t get that space? Is it being it effective to do that?

Adam Lubinsky It’s not keeping out the types of businesses. It’s just constraining the floor plate size of the footprint. And so, you know, trying to prevent, you know, they’ll take, you know, 200ft on a block or 150ft [Mary: they can kill a block]. That’s right. And so it’s really about the size. It’s not to say we don’t want banks. It’s just, we don’t want that size of a commercial unit. And yeah, another well, I’ll jump in with more comments, but there’s interesting facets too.

Mary W Rowe I’ll come back to you, Dorian lets … you jump into. And then I’m going to ask everybody if we can put everybody on the Hollywood Squares view so everybody can be seen. Dorian, what’s your perspective? I know you work between Windsor and Detroit, and you’re a fellow with CUI, so we appreciate your expertise always. What’s your view?

Dorian Moore Yeah. Thanks, Mary. The way I look at it, similar to what Adam was saying, is that one of the key factors in the main street is the size of the spaces that businesses need to locate in. And from that standpoint, the smaller the spaces, the easier it is to get local entrepreneurs involved in main street, which from the standpoint of hyper-local activity and addressing the consumer’s needs, I think that’s kind of the critical thing that we need to take a look at when we’re looking at revitalizing these main streets, but also what I’ve seen in my travels around different cities and in some of the work that we’ve done, is that there’s kind of four key areas that I think need to be addressed for the resiliency of main streets. The first are the buildings, and quite often, especially in smaller towns, you have historic or heritage structures in those cities that need to be addressed, rehabbed, and, you know, quite often, in a lot of cases saved from the wrecking ball, you have to understand those things are assets. One. The second thing that I think is an important thing to consider is public space. We talked about the street as the primary public space, and attention needs to be given to that. But attention also needs to be given to, what I think are three kinds of public space active, passive and hybrid. You know, parks, playgrounds and plazas. How those public spaces that we’ve seen that are important during Covid we understand the importance of those. But those can also help to become attractors for people to main streets and then there two other things that I think are important – one is mobility. And I think quite often we get concerned with how people are going to visit main street by car. But we’ve transitioned into a number of other viable transportation modes. And that being, you know, bicycling, we’ve got, rideshare, we’ve got all different modes. We have to address the mobility through the main street area, and then finally the connectivity between Main Street and its surroundings. How do you make it easy to access main street from the community, the neighborhoods that surround it. And how does it connect to other main streets within the area?

Mary W Rowe Yeah. I mean, it’s almost by definition – a main street is a connector. It is a … I mean, I think I like that by definition a main street implies it’s not a dead end, it’s a connection to something else. Can I ask Wendy to put everybody up on so we can see everybody and have our usual CityTalk bun fight – so that everybody is, everybody’s face is on the camera or whatever that expression is. Everybody’s face is on the screen. Because we’re getting lots of questions in the chat, and I want us to all feel free to just chime in on this. One of them is a question around equity. How do we make main streets, how do we ensure that main streets actually boost equity? I’ll throw one idea out, and then I want to hear other people suggestions. But if you have activities on a main street that attract a diversity of user and they somehow appeal to different kinds of folks, does that make it a more equitable main street? Those of you that are building these streets tell me, can we boost equity through main streets?

Janette MacDonald I think absolutely. Like, we have a lot of cultural organizations within our cities and our towns. And, you know, if you have a BIA, for example, they’re a great channel for all of these activities. If they have a decent budget they can certainly attract a lot of different activities that promote, you know, the equity that we’re seeking. We have a lot of businesses in London that are owned by all walks of life. And, you know, we have the great main street and Dundas Place, which is an event space now, it can be shut down for events and, you know, Friday nights outside of an El Salvadorian restaurant, they have salsa dancing. You know, that’s the type of thing … We need people to like, come and enjoy and embrace those different activities. And, you know, and not just think about what you always do, you know, which is not very fun to be inside.

Mary W Rowe But I guess one of the questions would be, is there a way to have enough of a diversity of mix of businesses and services and activities on the main street that everyone feels welcome? I just feel like people might feel “that street’s not for me”. Omer, what do you, what’s your experience of that? Because Toronto has enormous diversity of population. How do you actually … what steps can you take as a municipal government to make sure that streets feel equitable, and they’re accessible for everyone.

Omer Ismael Absolutely, yeah. There’s an interesting thing in Toronto where you see certain main streets and certain communities and geographies in the city really form, sometimes based on the migration and, and cultural connection that individuals have when they move to Canada. And obviously it leads to the creation of like areas like Little Italy and many other areas like Chinatown in downtown core, but also growing like Little Jamaica on Eglinton West. There’s these communities that are really entrenched in the idea of the culture in which they brought to Canada, and it provides a unique value to the city and also those that visit the city and the prospective businesses within those areas. But on the flip side, you know, as changes happen, when we’re decades now away or multiple decades away from the time in which this mass inflow of newcomers to Canada has come to shape this community, those communities also change, whether it be due to rising costs of, you know, housing or real estate as a whole for commercial businesses, or commercial properties for businesses. And there are investments that are also a consideration that need to be made to ensure that those communities, still retain one – that historic cultural connection to the businesses, that they provide unique services from those communities. But also we see those same things happening in areas where, you know, there’s maybe not a diverse retail mix of, different types of products or services provided within a specific BIA or whatever it may be. And there is that need to also consider what, you know, can be done to bring net new businesses to those communities as well, whether these be through programs that make it a little more accessible to improve a vacant property that can be repurposed for a new entrepreneur or a business looking to expand into a location that they previously really weren’t familiar with. Moving from one area to another. Those are those considerations there. So it’s not always financial. I think the other part is, you know, the comfort of a business owner itself. Knowing their market and where their market likes to shop and going there. And I think there’s another thing to consider around what access to information may be available to better understand the neighborhoods that a business can maybe set up shop. So, yeah, there’s a number ….

Mary W Rowe What the consumers want. You mean.

Omer Ismael Yeah.

Mary W Rowe Keep going, keep going. I cut you off.

Omer Ismael No. No worries. But there’s a number of programs that kind of speak to how that can happen, that the city currently operates. And, you know, I think for me, you know, one of the things we’re also seeing is … And I’m seeing in the chat extensively, the number of construction projects that are happening across the province. In Toronto we have some multi-year construction programs that are, you know, impacting certain communities and businesses are seeing, you know, some vacancies increase after the pandemic when they’re thinking they’re just over the worst. So, you know, their consideration there is like, what can be done to help support those business communities, those BIAs and the businesses that really make up that area. And one of the grant programs that we currently provide is a construction mitigation grant program, that really provides funding to small businesses, not for profit … Sorry, not for profits and BIAs, so really address the challenges and attract new people to those areas and get visitation to those areas. Despite maybe some of the barriers to access transportation that maybe that construction project has had. But there are a variety of challenges.

Mary W Rowe It’s so hard because we know we want those investments. I was thinking that the other day when I was lumbering along a main artery here and, you know, very slow, and I’m thinking, everybody hates this, but, you know, you’re investing in the future. That’s why the traffic is congested, because you’re actually building bike lanes and you’re building housing. I’m interested to hear from just the gang, all of you again, and maybe I’m going to go to Dorian and Adam for a second. The gentrification, the big G word, you know, as we … And in Canada, Adam, for your benefit, the discussion about more housing units is completely dominating the public discourse now, it’s all that’s being talked about. Every provincial budget, the federal budget’s all going to be about that. And the dilemma is that as you create more units, you in essence start to gentrify that neighborhood that the units are being created in and you force out the cheaper rent, small businesses. So what … I’m wondering whether we have to get really radical about this and have a new tax class for independent owned businesses. Otherwise we will not keep that … We won’t have those economic opportunities. We won’t have those places for newcomers to set up businesses and for us to be able to patronize because they’ll get forced out by all the money that’s being poured into either new transit infrastructure or new housing infrastructure. So how do we stop that … The negative side of that wall of money. Adam and then Dorian.

Adam Lubinsky Yeah. I mean, some of this really falls into kind of governance and management territory, which I can speak to a bit, but it it’s not all a design or planning question. And I think there are opportunities for, commercial community land trust to occupy ground floor spaces for bids to be kind of master lessees where they may have, you know, a lease on a large number of ground floor spaces. And they really curate those spaces. And so they can be the kind of broker between … we’ve seen some of that in downtown Brooklyn, you know, between, you know, landowners, landlords and, and new businesses. So I think there are some interesting models to do that. And then I think, it’s to continue to promote some of the things that we learned during Covid, but do that in a, in a really accessible way. You know, one thing I did want to mention, relative to the previous commentary about equity, is the restaurants that popped up on street. Right now in New York City we’re going through a big process, our firm WXY designed prototypes and the new guidelines for those. But there is a concern that, like, with regulation of those, we’re going to lose those. We’ve had 13,000 of those in New York City. And so really ensuring … and it’s employed so many people, you know, ensuring that you’re doing those kinds of programs in an accessible way, that you’re not overregulating them, is going to be important to keeping streets lively. So I think it’s really a combination of how you’re managing some of these ground floor units and then how you’re designing and regulating the street space as well.

Mary W Rowe All the municipal staff on the chat are going to go crazy now about the idea of overregulation. You know, we can all see it. We can all see that is happening. And suddenly now, you know, during the pandemic we all improvised and we tolerated all sorts of experiments. And now we’re back to rules on how long it takes. And it’s, it’s one of the interesting things about why it’s so important, to hang on to a business, because if they go under, it’s extraordinarily time consuming to try to replace that business. Dorian, what’s your view on this about the gentrification question and how do we … is it about curating Main Streets? Is it about a different tax classes, it is about community land trusts? What’s it about?

Dorian Moore Well, I, I guess what I would say is that it it’s about, you know, and I’ll build on what Adam was saying. It’s about strategic planning in my mind, in order to counteract the gentrification problem. One of the things that’s happening is, you know, in Ontario, with the push towards more density is … It’s coming up against the market, which the market breed sameness. That’s why in Toronto you’re seeing all of the same kinds of towers. [Right]. And so what we need from the government is the planning side of it. Not necessarily the taxing side, because you never know what happens when you place additional taxes or change tax structures. But from the government side and housing, where do we place housing? How do we provide incentives to locate the kinds of affordable housing that we need in specific areas.

Mary W Rowe And the businesses to support them?

Dorian Moore Right. And I was going to say, then that drives the demand for businesses that cater to those individuals, as opposed to the way that it happens now in a city like Toronto, where because of the development model, the only national retailer, Shoppers Drug Mart. And for those of you in the US, that’s CVS or Walgreens. And so we have to, from the government standpoint, is really enact some very strategic planning moves to sort of get things working and create that demand that solidifies main street.

Mary W Rowe But you know, the downside, I mean, you know, we don’t want to call out individual companies, but, I mean, there’s no question that Shoppers Drug Mart and the banks are all the ones that are the culprits. But at the same time, it may be the place where you can get a quart of milk and or you can get, you know, a banana. And that’s the dilemma that we often have too, is that, a lot of these places are food deserts. There aren’t actually, because the grocery chains, the way Canada is organized, they’re in big, big stores, not so much in small stores. So I think we always have to balance this, right? Lindsay, I’ve been giving Lindsay a bit of a break because I know that she’s having to respond to people in the chat. But, Lindsay, any perspectives from your point of view in terms of administering the two sides of the program? What have you been hearing as people have been calling you saying they want to apply.

Lindsay Webster It has really run the gamut. Some very specific questions on process of course, we want to have applicants be as successful as possible. So, walking them through the process as closely as we can. But really, I mean, they’re interested to know what types of projects we’ve funded in the past, how that can inspire their own ideas in their own neighborhoods. How it can kind of inform what sorts of projects might be possible. You know, it’s really it’s been such a variety and it’s hard to kind of say. And because we’re spanning such a large area, these are very regionally specific questions. Challenges that people are experiencing in rural areas versus urban areas are very specific and different.

Mary W Rowe Let’s talk for a second about the rural. Janette, you live rural now, don’t you?

Janette MacDonald I do, yes, I do. Komoka, Ontario.

Mary W Rowe Right. So you’re seeing in smaller communities, this is why we love the main street notion, because even in a small like Komoka they know. Are there different, what Lindsay was just hinting at, are there different challenges in those rural communities on their main streets, or are they similar to what they’re experiencing in the bigger cities?

Janette MacDonald Very similar to what they’ve experienced in the bigger cities. We’re fortunate here in Komoka. We have … don’t have to go outside of Komoka to live. You know, we have the essentials. We don’t have a lot of small, independent businesses here though. And that’s really what we’re lacking. We’re lacking that sense of community and that sense of like, the identity, you know, drop somebody Komoka, leave them for 20 minutes. They may not know where they are because there’s nothing to  identify Komoka, unless you’re at the provincial park, you know. So, but places around us, like, you know, Strathroy and Mount Bridges have great little main streets. We just haven’t built it here yet. But yeah, we do have a lot of the similar challenges. Like we can get milk, we can get wine, we’ve got an LCBO, it’s a great store but you know, you can you can get all of that, but you can’t get the relationship. You can’t get … there’s no little coffee shops where you can go and take your laptop and, you know, talk to the barista and get a couple cups of coffee and get some work done. There’s nothing like that.

Mary W Rowe But is it one of the things, I hope we’ll see people proposing this, through My Main Street, or just as we, you know, CUI will be about main streets as long as we can be. Believe me, you know, we will outlive this program, too. But, could we see more chances where we can use spaces for more than one thing? So can we get a coffee shop into, somebody made some comment about real estate developers, and I was, in North Toronto yesterday, and, were I was visiting my vet, which is on a main street, hurrah, hurrah. And two doors down there’s a real estate brokerage, and they’ve put a coffee shop in the brokerage, and it says, they’ve got a little sandwich board there saying, what better thing to do than come and talk to a realtor while you have a coffee? It’s kind of bizarre, really, but this idea that we could put more than one thing in this space. Sonia, in Unionville is that possible to see some co-locations, to have a little bit of a surprise that maybe you use a space for more than one thing, possible?

Sonia Chow Yeah, I think possible because, some of our, like, the resident houses can now be commercial use, they have, like, two stories, like two levels. So, we can definitely use, for multiple use. Well, another challenge is how to promote that, because many of the visitors, they just walk along the streets. They don’t know. Yeah. And then, we have also other challenge to put the sandwich board on the street now because, we need like, permit or even change the bylaw.

Mary W Rowe So you need to get a bylaw change  to put a sandwich board on the street?

Sonia Chow Yeah. Yeah. Because we are we are operating historic streets. So these are the challenges that, not just a BUI, but the businesses focus on, like facing the challenges.

Mary W Rowe Yeah.

Adam Lubinsky I think one thing that we’ve been exploring is not just combining different kind of uses, but also to have, maker spaces which have in front of house retail. So some of that is … some of those maker spaces have not been allowed on main streets because they were seen as manufacturing, but they’re really just light industrial. So that’s been something that can also make main streets really dynamic is like people are making things in those spaces and then selling some of those goods there as well.

Mary W Rowe Back to the, you know, how do we … are there some rules we could take down and are there some incentives we could provide back? So let’s reduce some of the rules that prohibit uses, and then think a little bit about how we can invest differently. A suggestion, Adam, you put into the chat here that in New York the city will bonus a developer if they’ll put a fresh food outlet in the main floor of their building. We need to think really imaginatively about this, guys, what can we do as main streets redevelop to incentivize really useful businesses, ideally independently owned on the main floors and that we have more agency on that. We’re three minutes out. We pride ourselves ending on time here. So last words, I’ll just go quickly around, ask each of you in terms of the challenge you see right now and what you would say to the audience in terms of how they can strengthen the collective capacity of their main streets around equity and resilience and economic opportunity. Omer you first?

Omer Ismael Yeah, it’s a good one. I’m sure by the end of this, I’ll have a different answer that comes to mind and I’ll regret not saying it, but I think the big piece, as individuals on this call … Take time to explore new neighborhoods, whether they’ve be in near proximity, to your home or elsewhere, to really find out where you can shop local to buy the products, produce, services that you need. More and more, I feel like the question is, yes, I can do it online, but wouldn’t it be better if I can do it nearby? So that’s just one part. It’s a little small call to action.

Mary W Rowe That’s great. One from you, Lindsay. One thing.

Sonia Chow Yeah. So I would you know what? Speaking kind of to the small businesses and organizations that we have in our main street communities, lean into the resources that are available to you. You know, your local BIAs, your small business centers, these are places that are ready and, you know, enthusiastic about helping you and, showing you sort of what, what can be available, what can be possible and sort of walking you through the process as well. So they’re a fantastic asset for those areas that have them available to them.

Mary W Rowe Dorian.

Dorian Moore Incentivize the training of small business entrepreneurs to inhabit some of these spaces, and so that everything becomes rather local and familiar, creating an identity for the main street.

Mary W Rowe Hmmm training, that’s interesting. Right? Okay. Sonia.

Sonia Chow Yeah, I would say understand your stakeholders and, having the community engagement to success.

Mary W Rowe Right? Janette.

Janette MacDonald Well, obviously, I’m going to plug the local currency program, but it’s a wonderful way to take shop local and actually deliver the local spend. And if you can encourage larger employers in the neighborhoods that have the, the, the program to use that for incentives for their staff, it keeps the money local and it invests in the community where they’ve chosen to do business, and they can be a community champion. And there’s no better way, you know, to spend money locally. And it’s very inclusive for every type of business.

Mary W Rowe So keep the money local. New. York City. Adam …

Adam Lubinsky So I would say it’s been well documented that public investment in the public realm sparks far more private investment. So I would put public money into making streets feel like public space. So they integrate ways of dealing with rainwater through rain gardens, on street restaurants, you know, public parklets, dealing with waste issues, like we need streets to be seen through a totally different lens that will support main streets. That’s what I would put money toward.

Mary W Rowe You guys are great. I want to spend all afternoon with you. Thank you for joining us. And everybody go out, spend some money on your main street. Go hang out. Go have a nice time. Talk to your neighbors, invest in the businesses that are there and make something fabulous happen. And if you’re applying to My Main Street, March 31st, it’s soon. And if you don’t have a My Main Street funded program, go to your local MP or MPPs and say we need My Main Street here, and let’s make this work across the country because it’s all about our streets and our people. Thanks everybody for joining us. Great to have you. Have a good weekend everyone.