Looking Ahead: What’s in store for urban Canada in 2025?

Full Panel
Transcript

Note to readers: This video session was transcribed using auto-transcribing software.  Questions or concerns with the transcription can be directed to citytalk@canurb.org with “transcription” in the subject line.

Mary W. Rowe Hi, everybody, it’s Mary Rowe from the Canadian Urban Institute. I’m always so interested in how prompt everybody else, even in January, just saying we always wait a few minutes to let the room fill up because we have hundreds of people that have to get on. And Zoom isn’t always the most efficient. So thank you for joining us and thank you for joining us for the first CityTalk of 2025 and the miracle that is. As you know, this is the traditional territory of a number of Inuit, Métis and First Nations peoples across the country. We’re not only here but across the country, and we have people signing in from locations far and wide. I appreciate when you do that because it gives people a sense of the breadth of listenership that we have for CityTalks and that it’s not just a conversation that is confined to only where one of us happens to reside, which is for me today in Toronto, covered by Treaty 13 and home to Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishnabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples. But all of us are gradually and we hope, progressively coming to terms with the legacies of exclusion and how that’s affected our relationships around indigenous peoples, but also increasingly the diversity of Canadians that don’t all look the same and don’t all come from the same place. And we had interesting meetings this week about demographics and what the future is going to look like, and I’m anticipating that will be one of the topics that one of our guests will flag is where is the population going generally? But I appreciate people signing in. The other thing is, I just want to say that a number of you joined us in Ottawa in December for the second annual CUI Summit on the State of Canada’s Cities, and, you know, this is becoming, I think, increasingly a thing that we all sort of set our sights on. It’s a kind of moment in time where we identify what the sort of things are, you know, what sort of a litmus test or taking our temperature about what’s going on in places across the country. And when we say urban CUI is the Urban Institute, we don’t only mean large cities, we mean small communities as well. And I think over time, what we’ve started to develop collectively amongst all of us is a narrative around place and how do we actually create the conditions in places for people to thrive economically, socially, culturally, at varying scales of place. And in December, our theme was infrastructure. Everybody thought that was going to be a bit dry … it was far from dry, just saying. It was actually very interesting. And it continues to be interesting. And I’m hoping that we all are going to make infrastructure the hottest topic ever because it’s about the future. It’s about the present, obviously, but it’s also about the future and how we invest in our places. And then as we move into this, I can only describe as sort of tumultuous political season, but also just economically and socially, all the things that are … and environmentally … that are ahead of us in 2025. I’m hoping that one of the things that we can do to help cope is to ground ourselves in very practical lessons and learnings about what actually works in places. And so that’s why we continue to have these kinds of discussions. And we also on … we not only do these webinars as people know, which we call CityTalk Live, we also have CityTalk Podcasts. And at the summit we recorded several. And I continue to get requests from guests who want to come on. It gives me a chance to really develop a little deeper into a topic, get people, you know, to have more of a chance to sort of uncover what they think are the priorities and what they think the solutions are. So they’re also at CityTalk Canada. So if you haven’t actually noticed that we have podcasts, we do and they’re at citytalkcanada.ca, or you can also find them wherever you download your favorite podcast because we’re on all those platforms. So I’m hoping that we will continue to reinforce that this is an ongoing conversation even when this session ends. As you know, we always say it’s not the end of a conversation, it’s just the beginning. So without any other delays, and any other advertisements from CUI, I’m going to ask our group to put their cameras on and we’re going to have a conversation about what we think is ahead in 2025. And just at the outset, I said just when we were getting our soundchecks, I said, you know, this is all open conversation. Like, don’t hold back. And we try to say … As much as we publish everything, you know, we publish the chat, we publish this recording, we will publish subsequently podcasts and stuff like that. So it’s all in the public domain. But I also try to always encourage us to be as frank as we can about what do we really think is ahead and what are you seeing and what do you think the challenges are? And then that little adage, we always use it at CUI: what’s working, what’s not and what’s next. And we are … what are we … Five days from the inauguration of a new American president. We’ve just seen overnight an announcement of some kind of a, we hope, sustainable peace settlement in the Middle East. Canada – for our American viewers, partners in crime and city building, Canada has been rather provoked, I would say, by the president-elect’s statements around his relationship to Canada, so that obviously … he’s going to colour things and who knows what direction that will take. And actually our American friends who are on the chat, if you want to throw in your two cents please do. I always say to people, if you’re a lurker, we love lurkers, don’t feel you have to, but if you’ve never been on the CityTalk chat, you’re missing an opportunity to read lots of lively dialog between them and also lots of resources because people post things in the chat. So let’s have as open a conversation as we can, as you feel at liberty to have. And out of that, I’m going to go first to the east, where the weather I’m sure is the best, to the newly elected his worship or his honor, I’m not sure what the … I used to tease your predecessor, Mayor Fillmore, about what his preferred descriptor was. But you are the newest member of the mayoralty line there in the Halifax Regional Municipality, and I’m keen to hear from you. What do you see? I mean, you’re in your new role, not a stranger to city building because of your discipline and your background and your activism over many, many years. But why don’t you start us off with what you see as the priorities for 2025 for Canada. Welcome to CityTalk in this new capacity.

Andy Fillmore Thanks, Mary. And as always, thanks to you and the team at CUI for hosting us so ably and communing these really important conversations. Look, not different here than anywhere else in the country. Housing and homelessness, congestion and transit and affordability … Those are really the things that we’re that we’re wrestling with. And I’ll leave it, I don’t know how much time you’re going to give me, I’ll leave it a minute to something called The Big city Mayor’s Caucus, which I know you know about. And what we’re in talks about right now between the big city mayors. But I want to make an interesting point, though, it’s not a very happy point, but one of the things that, in fact, these things that brought Sadhu Johnston and I together many years ago was something called the Urban Sustainability Directors Network. And that’s a very powerful body, that created some very powerful work. But I raise that because, you know, that was in an era 10 or 12 years ago where we were all talking about sustainability and climate change in a really, really important way. When I was knocking on doors as a federal politician in 2015, I heard about it every door. In 2019, I heard it about it at every door, when I was knocking on doors for my third federal election in 2021 … Where did it go? All of a sudden, it was table stakes. We’re back to affordability, where am I going to live? You know, and I’m sorry to report that during our recent municipal election, I hardly heard a word about climate change and adaptation, which is odd because Halifax was beset with, a year and a half ago, with a polar vortex hurricane, a wildfire, a season of flooding. As the previous mayor said, we’d become a four season disaster zone. So the work there remains very important, but has been eclipsed in the public opinion by housing, affordability, transit, congestion, etc..

Mary W. Rowe Yeah, I mean, it is interesting, as you say, the cyclical nature of this and how do we … Sometimes people ask me that at CUI … how do you keep so many files open? How do you decide which are the priorities? And part of what we try to do is look at the narrative that may be shared, common between whether it’s housing or whether it’s climate or whether it’s culture, that there’s sometimes a sort of through line. So, for instance, for us that might be, well, you need regional coordination or it might be you need local solutions or you might need more devolution of responsibility to local governments, all that kind of thing. But I hear you that … And I’m wondering, as the narrative has shifted dramatically in Canada over the last 2 or 3 weeks, how is that going to affect us? Andy, one quick thing for you. or Mayor Fillmore, excuse me, one quick thing … are you the first urban planner to be elected mayor in Canada?

Andy Fillmore I was the first parliamentarian elected that was a city planner. I don’t know the answer to your second question there, if it’s in the mayoralty, I have a feeling not, but I don’t know for sure.

Mary W. Rowe Diane might know because she’s also a former mayor. Actually I might go to her next and then I’ll go to Sadhu. Diane, do you want to chime in? Because again, you’ve had many lives, too, and many different roles, as has Mayor Fillmore. And what are you seeing in your current seat, but also based on all your years of experience watching these kinds of things hit on the ground in a local place. Give us a sense of what you think’s ahead for 2025.

Diane Therrien Yeah, I think that the word of the year is going to be, you know, “uncertainty” and seeing so much of that. And, you know, in my former life, I was a city councilor and mayor, and municipalities in Ontario like run slightly different in different provinces, different municipal acts. But overall, you know, and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities put out a great policy paper on this last year about a new municipal growth framework. Because our municipalities and the way that they’re funded in this country is woefully outdated. And so I think as we head into an election year, and here in Ontario, a provincial and federal election year, on top of what’s going on with our southern neighbours, there’s a lot of uncertainty. But it’ll be interesting to watch the federal candidates, you know, and pressure them to talk about what their plan is for helping municipalities, because here in Ontario, I know it’s a little bit different out in B.C. where you have a provincial housing authority. But, you know, here in Ontario, the municipalities have been responsible for housing and social assistance, all these things that have been downloaded first by the feds in the early 90s and then here by the Harris government in the mid-nineties. And municipalities are left sort of holding the bag, which is empty, to try to deal with this this crisis. And so that’s something that we’re concerned about at CUPE. You know, obviously, as you know, being a union, we represent a lot of municipal workers as well as workers in various other sectors who are, you know, again, getting slammed by governments, provincial governments across the country when it comes to contracting out or privatizing of services, that’s going to be a big fight on the health care front. But all of those things are interconnected and interrelated and ultimately impacts us, people, on the on the ground. And so, again, I think that uncertainty is a big thing. Municipalities plan is as best they can within the limited constraints that they have. But so much of it is going to the senior levels of government saying, “please help us with transit, housing, infrastructure, whatever it is”, you know, because property taxes, you can only raise so much. And so again, coming up with innovative ways of redistributing that that wealth from the senior levels of government and their ability to bring in that revenue and then distribute it down to communities who are still picking up from, you know, from Covid and all of that. And then again, the housing crisis, which, you know, I was saying this when I was in office, it’s going to get worse before it gets better. And we’re seeing that play out. And certainly, you know, depending on what happens down south, that will not be a good, recipe either.

Mary W. Rowe You were Mayor when Diane? Just remind people you were Mayor of Peterborough when?

Diane Therrien I got elected in 2018 to 2022, so came in and had a year of cool stuff and then Covid hit, which really threw off everybody’s, you know, service delivery and planning. Yeah. And then didn’t run for reelection in 2022. And you know, that’s a bigger conversation about the toxicity in politics and public life. And Andy, fresh off a campaign, I’m sure you know, and that’s compounded for women and visible minorities and all of those other things. But that’s another conversation.

Mary W. Rowe Well, it may be part of this conversation because I think, how do you have a civil discourse? And also, I think the issue came up last December as well, and I, when you just used that phrase, redistributing wealth, how are we going to pay for the kinds of public investments that everybody might agree and nod, need to happen, whether it’s to support housing or mental health interventions or transit investment? How is that going to get paid for? And with the political winds changing, how do we imagine that being done? So I’m going to come back to that, but I’m going to … can I go to you now Sadhu? We’ll go back to the sunny climes of the west and get a perspective from you about what you see ahead for 2025.

Sadhu Johnston Yeah, sure. Firstly, Diane was just talking about the kind of challenges in government and politics, and the toxicity that you see, and that can all get you down, but then when I get on a call like this and I see Andy as the mayor – it just gives me hope, you know, that great people are choosing to go into politics for the right reasons and are being recognized by the electorate. So, Andy, thanks for doing what you’re doing. You know, I guess I’d say the general mood in our cities like that, that kind of post-pandemic credit toward government has worn off. Dissatisfaction with government is high. Affordability is front and center for people. There’s low tolerance for tax increases. There’s a recognition we need more housing, but no clear way to pay for all the infrastructure to support it. And I think street disorder and homelessness remain major, major problems for local government. And then uncertainty. Diane said the uncertainty is, I think, kind of a major driving force for where folks are at right now. So I want to hit on a few of those. I mean, this huge pressure for growth in our cities and to expedite it, to ram it through, which, you know, we need more housing. And cities are squeezed with the costs. Like how do you pay for the infrastructure to get water and sewers and child care? You know, you don’t want to move into a new neighborhood, move into a new house, and then you can’t find childcare or a place for dance classes or school space. So I think it’s been exacerbated by immigration, which, you know, is … we’re coming to terms with. I think, the uncertainty at the federal level. A lot of what we’re seeing now, rental building is finally happening after decades of working toward that. That relies on federal supports. Will those continue … The uncertainty, you know, in Canada? I think the street disorder issue, you know, I do see a shift happening there, which I think is really important, which … like more assertive solutions with involuntary care that you’re seeing in B.C.. Like it’s … I think cities have really been back on their heels trying to figure out how to deal with so many of these issues that are outside of their direct control but that are driving a lot of their costs and are really impacting people’s desire and interest in being downtown and the quality of life. So I think that’s …  we’re going to be seeing some shifts there, which w would be important. You know, I think the Trump factor is, you know, the uncertainty in the U.S. I was city manager in Vancouver last time that we saw Trump come into office and there was a lot of uncertainty. And, you know, there wasn’t that much impact on our communities. We did see more immigration of kind of high tech workers and actually tech companies coming. So there are upsides as well. So there’s … the uncertainty, but kind of recognizing we’ve been through this before and there’s going to be ups and downs. The last thing I want to say, Andy was talking about climate change, and, you know, I think in many ways, the dialog around climate change is shifting too. The L.A. fires, for instance, or just, people are recognizing across the board whatever political stripe that there are, there are changes coming and we need to be ready for them. And that’s going to cost a lot, a lot, a lot of money. And we need to figure out how to pay for it. And we need to be putting money aside now to build those seawalls and to do the various things that need to be done. Diane mentioned the FCM work on funding infrastructure. We as a country really need to come to terms with how we’re going to cover the infrastructure costs. And I think that’s going to be going more and more front and center and in the year ahead.

Mary W. Rowe Yeah, I appreciate that sort of scope of things you just raised there. And also this piece about, I feel like CUI sits in a kind of jurisdictional, neutral space. We try to anyway. Because we are about solving things in places, place based challenges versus advocating for one jurisdiction or one over another. And I think that that’s going to become more and more … It’s becoming more and more apparent to us that, isn’t it … And not just us, I mean all of us … That we don’t necessarily see these challenges in a similar kind of way across jurisdictions and across the country. And it’s manifesting in terms of people’s responses to the American policy initiatives. But it’s always there, as you suggested. And so  for instance, dealing with street disorder, or harm reduction or … There are varying approaches and varying perspectives on this even within a province, let alone across the country. So how we’re going to navigate that kind of level of dissent and disagreement, and I appreciate the comment from, I think it’s from Tim Douglas on the chat, saying, you know, let’s not be disrespectful of people that disagree with us. I’m totally with you there on that, Tim. And it’s kind of responding to what Diane is suggesting, how do we model a respectful civil discourse about what’s the most effective solution and not allow ourselves to get drawn into partisan attacks and highly personal attacks? Anyway, thanks Sadhu. I’m going to come back. Brian, let’s get you on. What do you see? You’re very practically grounded and running a very particular kind of set of interventions and opportunities in Vancouver. Speak to us a little bit about what you see ahead for 2025.

Brian McBay Yeah, I guess some culture is certainly not a front and center for most folks, but with this, let’s call it American pernicious sort of culture that we’re seeing publicly now is – it could be an opportunity, I think, for us to think about what makes Canada unique and also this kind of spirit of meanness and division. You know, we can think about kindness and honesty. And so I think there is, you know, from a kind of nuts and bolts standpoint. And it’s really great to see Sadhu on this call because at 221A, where I work, we’ve been operating these, you know, residential housing for artists as well as cultural spaces. And Sadhu, during his time as city manager, I think, the enabling kind of policies put in place at that time really is what has me here today. So really great to see you. And you know, I do think the arts and culture sector is used to this kind of state of uncertainty. But with the pandemic, there was kind of a buoyancy, let’s call it, in the sense that people were moving to digital culture in this new way and maybe profoundly looking at watching Netflix, seeing kind of racial tension, imagining that these American experiences are perhaps things that resolve some of these deep kind of feelings of shame and uncertainty that we have in Canada. And the funding that came during that period, I think was largely seen as a kind of health crisis … We just needed to go. And at the same time, Black Lives Matter came about. So it was 2020 and so a huge amount of that funding at Canada Council went from, you know, before the pandemic, $180 million to $360 million. When the pandemic came, it went up to $500 million. That extra funding, a lot of it went to Bipoc folks who for decades haven’t had a voice at the table. And so there’s this sort of situation now where we’re saying, okay, pandemic funding is drying up and everyone’s saying, well, the official spaces of cultural production, like those large museums and theaters and venues that we all know of, are teetering on the brink of collapse and challenges from operating costs. But actually, it’s also, this sort of entire, let’s call it generation of artistic voices that have been empowered through those fundings is now also being challenged. And you know, out west here it’s very tough because operating funding has increased. I think is 2013 to 2023, we’ve seen operating allocations increase by 25% at the B.C. Arts Council. I’m a member of the B.C. Arts Council and we’re seeing commercial leasing prices increased by 270%. So you have more and more operating dollars basically being absorbed by commercial real estate costs. And so you know, we’re at this point where I think it’s 90/95% of our cultural spaces are in commercial real estate markets. And as we make these big pressures … we’ve got to get housing, we have to get all this other growth in place and redevelopment … We’re going to see a loss of those sort of, let’s call it neighborhood cultural venues that are so important to expressing, you know, diverse identity and also telling these stories of, you know, indigenous ways of being and the truth of colonization, which, you know, I think we should lean into rather than feel, “hey, like we can’t be as total and as prideful as the Americans”, you know, in that they have a kind of a blindness to their identity, let’s call it, in terms of being able to kind of ground themselves in a story, a myth. And our myth here, I think, as a society, is largely fractured. And that fracturing … and it’s through the relations of French and English, but also through this fracturing across different peoples and indigenous folks and … that fracturing, I think we should lean into and say that’s actually something we can  … this discomfort is something we should feel good about. And maybe it also speaks to what Diane’s kind of raising in terms of how we even think about  our discourse. I was listening to the music, the intro to this, and I was thinking about that music, what kind of music do we want for the future of civil discourse?

Mary W. Rowe Absolutely. I’m going to ask Wendy to put us all on the camera so we can … everybody can see each other now. Everybody open your mics. And, you know, I think I’ve been reduced to tears a few times on CityTalks …  We’ve done almost 300 of them, or what is it, 275 or something. So that’s not a surprise, I suppose that there would be poignant moments, but … and maybe this is going to be one of them, but I want to be able to see everybody.  I hope everybody can see everybody. And open your mikes so that we can interrupt each other easily. And I think there’s a couple of things that just sort of are common links for all of you. One is, Brian, you just got at it like, what is our essence? What is our essence? What can inform and underpin the conversation over the year? I’m interested with what you were suggesting there. Wendy will take to heart your comment about the music and how do we use culture as a unifying kind of thread, I guess. But I also wonder, how do we use place? I often think during the pandemic when there were things challenging us and we were outside visibly seeing it, I don’t think anybody spent too much time thinking about whose jurisdiction it was to address it. Everybody was saying, “Well, somebody’s got to fix this?” Like, how are we going to get portable washrooms into parks? How are we … You know? And now as we look at the mental health challenges on Main Streets and in downtowns, everybody can see it. And I feel like we’re all past blaming anybody. We’re all past saying it’s your fault. We have to move to this kind of collective, it’s everybody’s challenge. Anybody want to weigh in on that in terms of … Diane, I might start with you because Peterborough’s particularly challenged, but you’re not unique. There’s many, many, many.

Diane Therrien Yeah. I mean, there was sort of when I was in office, there was this feeling that it was unique because that visible sort of homelessness really came to the fore just before and then, especially during the pandemic. And, you know, and we’re seeing that in Ontario, you know, with the removal of rent, rent caps, you know, it was a big contributor. And I mean, there’s so many things that that all coincide with it. And I think that it’s again, it’s hard for municipalities to have like a lot of long term future planning again, because councils turn over every four years. The funding piece is constrained again legislatively. And then you have like in Peterborough, other services, like there was a talk about, you know, immigration and international students. There was a lot of international students that came to Trent and Fleming and … but that’s what’s keeping our transit system thriving right now really. So there’s all those pieces that are interconnected and it’s easy to pull one out and say, well, this is the problem, but it’s much bigger than that, and, you know, it has to do a lot with, you know, consolidation of like real estate holdings. Like when I moved to Peterborough, this is 15 years ago now, I rented a two bedroom apartment for just under $800. Now you can’t find a one bedroom apartment for under $1200 and that’s in Peterborough. That’s not in a major city. And so I brought this up when in December at the State of Cities Summit. Like, I always think about the young, like when I started in politics, I was young, now I’m closing in on 40. But, you know, for somebody that is 20 years old and trying to start out like I can just … I try to imagine the overwhelming anxiety and burden of trying to be able to afford to exist in this this world which is burning and is getting increasingly expensive and all of those things. So, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, really clamping down on like this unfettered corporate greed that we’ve seen, which is driving a lot of the cost of groceries, oil, housing, you name it, you know, and here in Canada, we hear a lot about like the grocery cartels and price fixing and those kinds of things. But there’s people behind that and there’s people behind that who are working really hard to roll back the capital gains tax and who don’t want any real proper taxation on the ultra, ultra-wealthy. Like if you’re making $10 million plus a year, I’m talking to you. I don’t know how many of you are on the call, probably not. But people get really antsy when I talk about that. I remember being at a thing where I was saying that, somebody was like, “well, I’m really rich” …  You’re making over $50 million a year? Well, no. And I’m like, Well, then it’s okay …

Mary W. Rowe Diana, I’m going to … I’m going to just flag that I managed, sorry, my omission … We normally have four on these calls, today we have five. Because this is such an important topic and I forgot Jason. Jason – please don’t take it as deliberate. I hope you won’t mind. I want Jason to get his crack at this. Sadhu, thank you for flagging that I managed to forget Jason. But also I want to come back to what Diane is suggesting, because here’s one of the dilemmas with this kind of a forum. I want you all to talk frankly and brashly and be really, you know, out there with your views. And then as soon as you do, somebody on the chat is going to say, “well, I didn’t actually like the way the Americans were characterized”, or “you just said unfettered greed”. And I’m sure that’s going to get a few people saying, “what do you mean unfettered greed?” But just … But I want us to all appreciate this, that we’re trying to create spaces that allow us to all speak in whatever way we choose to speak, and then we can deal with each other’s reactions in a civil kind of way. And … just I want to flag that a number of us are actually dual citizens. So those of you that are concerned about Americans being maligned, I’m an American, so I appreciate that. So is Sadhu and I’m sure there are others that are probably on as well. So, anyway, Jason, over to you. Take your time. And I’m so sorry …

Jason Reynar No, no problem at all Mary, it’s a really good conversation. Always happy to be here. Thank you so much for the opportunity. And maybe I’ll try to weave together Brian and Diane’s latest comments. The first is around the culture piece and sort of, you know, what is it to be Canadian in 2025? And I just love these editorials that are running around now about, you know, it takes the Americans talking about making us the 51st state for us to recognize that we actually love our country and oh my God, there’s all these terrible things. But actually it’s quite good relative to other places. And it reminds me this very simple, maybe ridiculous example, but when I was the CEO of a small municipality which was amalgamated by the provincial government and didn’t really have an identity that sort of struck across the entire … all these little hamlets. And so we proposed changing the name of the municipality. Well, the entire community came out and said like, this is outrageous. Like, how could you dare change the name of this municipality? You know, previous to that, nobody would identify, they wouldn’t even call themselves from Innisfil, they would call themselves from, you know, the small hamlet that they were from. And I wonder, in 2025, can we do that as a country. Right. And come together around those values that actually make us Canadian? I think it’s super exciting. The other piece to go to Diane’s comment around, you know, how are we going to fund some of these real crises that are in front of us? And I think in the chat Gabriel was talking about, you know, how do we fund some of this? And you and I have talked about this and I think, you know, coming out of the summit in December, one of the pieces that I was left with was – how do municipalities and those working with municipalities, partners, collaborators get access to some of the value and the wealth, frankly, that’s being created in our communities. And I think we need to really just, you know, come at this from a … as if we were starting from scratch. Right? You know, I think there’s opportunities where municipalities and their partners can come together to actually create revenue and funding for different kinds of things that they need to do that they may not have thought of before. And I’ll just give you this one simple example, Mary, you and I have talked about it, but, you know, in the community we were in, they had really terrible cell service. So the community decided to go ahead and build cell towers. You know, that is not a business that municipalities are typically in. They don’t want to touch it. There’s risk, funding, capital … But at the same time, we were able to deliver, you know, essentially 2 or 3 towers in the community, provide better cell service to the community, which of course today means so much for people to be able to access services and everything else. And the capital was paid back in 3 to 5 years. And then there was a small revenue from the telcos who rented space on the towers. They were happy to do that, they just didn’t want to put up the capital. So a very small example, but something that I think, you know, how do we create these kind of spaces where we can have conversations about things we haven’t done traditionally in municipalities?

Mary W. Rowe Do you know that beloved adage, beloved by me, better to ask for forgiveness than permission? You know, this kind of culture that we tend to … that is mostly culture, Brian,  not your culture, but it’s multi culture of kind of waiting for somebody to do something. And then instead of just saying, “shit, man, we’re just going to do it”, you know? And I think that, I think where it’s difficult. I was thinking when you were using your cell tower example, we have First Nations that have been waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting on Canada to address water issues. And then eventually some of them just say, “that’s it, we’re just going to figure out a micro solution”. But what’s concerning is that they want the resources. They feel they have an entitlement to the resources and Canada should be paying for it. So I think this is sort of the rub, we find. Now this time for real, open your mics. All of you and all of us are here now. And how do we actually … Let’s talk for a minute about money, because I think we’re all agreed across all sectors … let me see. I’ll see if the chat blows up. Are we agreed that communities across this country of varying scales need investment in various forms of physical, social infrastructure that makes our collective lives work? And how do we do that in a way that is going to last beyond … I’m going to start with you, Andy. It’s going to last beyond municipal political electoral cycles, not just municipal, but federal and provincial electoral cycles. And how do we make them … My little phrase here: How do you make the money small enough? Because sometimes, you know, we’re running something called the Climate Infrastructure Service, a roster service, and with small communities across the country, if you don’t know about it they’ll put it in the chat. It’s called CRIS, and it’s all about small municipalities needing smaller investments. And sometimes the money’s just too big. So, Andy, let me start with you. How are we going to … and let’s not just, as much as I love big city mayors and I love FCM and I love the municipal growth framework, it’s all good work. And hats off to you guys have been doing it, but how do we move to actually getting the money going?

Andy Fillmore Well, look, I’ll start with a learning that I had in 2015. You know, I was elected when we changed governments at that time and the first year and a half of community infrastructure funding announcements that I made were all funding dollars from the previous government. They were all Harper dollars from Build Canada and the Build Canada 2 fund. So if people are asking now “what’s going to happen to the various funding programs” – I’m talking about big dollars for the moment, what’s going to happen to the permanent public transit fund, what’s going to happen to the housing infrastructure fund? My … I’m an optimist and I’m fairly confident that those programs will remain through a change in government that is likely. But that is certainly where Big City Mayors caucus at FCM are putting a lot of their advocacy right now. What’s fascinating is that there is a whole cohort of government relations firms, a whole cohort of not for profits that have spent the last nine years talking to one particular government and one particular set of ministers. And all of that needs to be reinvented now with the new government coming in. So I’m encouraging everybody that I talk to make sure that they’ve begun to build relationships if they haven’t already, with folks from whichever party they think is going to  form government. So there’s that. But I also wanted to surface, it came up earlier in the conversation around … I’ll use Halifax as an example, we’re not the only one, but here’s the example. We’re having unprecedented growth in our city right now, for which we’re very grateful. A lot of people work very hard to foment that growth. But what we’re seeing as a disproportionate share of the benefits of that growth, i.e. property tax or i.e. sales taxes, income tax, going to the provincial government when a disproportionate share of the cost of growth, infrastructure, etc., transit coming to the municipality. So our revenue is basically flat with immigration and population growth, but our costs are escalating, whereas the provincial costs are escalating at one rate but the revenue is increasing at a much greater rate. So there does need to be a national conversation and I’m working hard to initiate it here in Nova Scotia around how provincial governments can better participate in managing the costs of growth. And that’s not just infrastructure. I’ll bring it back to where you started. That’s also housing, homelessness, wraparound support. It’s support for the arts. It’s all of the financial supports that are needed and that people rely on for the various orders of governments from.

Mary W. Rowe You know, we can see in the chats and reaction to, you know, who is actually paying for infrastructure. And some concern if you use private capital there you lose control, that it’s risky, you know, all these kinds of anxieties. Can I get a sense from other folks about the financial resources that are going to be required? And thoughts on that in terms of what our options are.

Sadhu Johnston I’ll jump in. In many ways, cities have been using development cost charges. So if a developer wants to build a building, city will charge them some fees. There’s different names for it, but that’s been a major driver for supporting that growth and that is really being clamped down on in many ways by …

Mary W. Rowe It’s getting eliminated. It’s being eliminated by some jurisdictions.

Sadhu Johnston And so, you know, you got a city. One example, we were we were doing rezoning work to support more density around Oakridge and Vancouver. Many of you know the neighborhood. And we were doing a huge scheme to support … It was all transit oriented, subway going right by. And we came up with a new plan to support a lot more housing there. And we were getting it through. And the engineers put their hand up and said, you know, this is all great, but we’re like at $1 billion just to support the sewer and water for that neighborhood that you want to rezone. You know, and it was just like throwing cold water on the whole thing because these neighborhoods have been built for single family. That’s what the infrastructure is. And we want to increase. But, you know, if you’re doing that, you need all the wraparound infrastructure supports. And if you can’t get the development to pay for it and you don’t have the programs like Diane said, you know, you’re coming in with a kind of open hand saying, “give us this money for infrastructure”. So I do think we do need to make sure that development is contributing to the infrastructure costs that are being generated. And looking at the tax system in Vancouver, at least, for every dollar that the taxpayer contributes to taxes, $0.08 of that comes back to the city. And with that, we’re supposed to do fire, roads, police, child care, infrastructure. Like there’s just you know, it doesn’t work. And I’ve been involved with Mary, you mentioned the CRIS program, Climate Ready Infrastructure Service. Most of my career I’ve been involved with bigger cities. I was in the mayor’s office in Chicago and then in Vancouver, and now I’m talking to CAOs, CFOs in smaller communities, 30,000 and less across Canada. And the constraints and the challenges are just multiplied when you’re talking about a small community. Some of the folks, the CAOs that I’m talking to are in their gear because they’re going to go out and drive a snowplow later that day because, you know, they got to do everything. And so our small communities have been neglected in this country. And some of them … I’ve talked to, some who, you know, they have recreational activities in their area and they all rely on these little bridges over creeks, that snowmobilers and stuff can utilize. And those bridges are all 100 years old and falling apart and the province oversees them and doesn’t care about them, is neglecting them. And so that community’s whole tourism infrastructure is falling apart because there aren’t these bridges being maintained. That’s just one example. So it’s, you know, we really need to be … I think we really need to be thinking about the smaller communities in our country as well and how they get the supports to be climate ready and to be investing. Otherwise everyone leaves the small communities, goes to the cities, and that just exacerbates all the housing challenges we have.

Mary W. Rowe And that’s you know, it’s not just bridges. It’s rec centers. I mean, all of us know a community where you’ve seen a rec center that was built as a centennial project, that’s 1967. So we’re seeing it again and again. I want to just go back to … and then I want to come to housing and culture. The idea, though, where’s the money going to come from. When people are feeling strapped, when affordability is the number one concern, when we’ve got people very focused, I think, on pocketbook issues. And there’s a suggestion in the chat that property tax has to double and all these things – are we using private capital appropriately, are using pension capital appropriately. It’s probably all of the above. Right. Jason, do you have thoughts on this … you’re getting questions in the chat about what is the bond structure, what is the potential to use municipal bonds? Diane, did you do any in Peterborough and did you look at that?

Diane Therrien We looked at it a little bit but it didn’t really get off the ground.

Mary W. Rowe Yeah.

Jason Reynar Yeah. It’s interesting because I think for so long in infrastructure conversations, for decades, it was about getting bigger, right? So pension funds only want to play when it’s a $500 million plus, you know, so we do these triple P’s … Public Private Partnerships and for years it was about, you know, compiling it together and making, you know, the amount of money so large that you could attract interest from these pension funds and others or the federal government, for that matter. And I think now we’re starting to realize that … no we actually have to get small. We have to figure out how do you do $100,000 bond? I mean, in some cases that sounds … I mean, in financial circles, that sounds ridiculous, right? How can you possibly make any money? How can you possibly warrant the kind of due diligence and risk analysis and legal contracts?

Mary W. Rowe And the transaction costs become … they won’t do it. And even if you talk to the pension fund operators, Andy, I don’t know whether you’re having these conversations in Nova Scotia about this, but if you talk to them, they’ll say, well, we’ve got shareholders, we’ve got … fundholders … You’ve got all these accountabilities and they have to look for the highest rate of return. It’s interesting. We’re back to how do we do the math to make money smaller. Brian, in terms of culture, have you tried some bonds? I think you have. No? You have no kind of mechanism like that?

Brian McBay No, we haven’t, at 221A anyways, been involved with impact investing and bonds. I think those are both really great solutions in terms of getting real estate more de-commodified. I mean I do feel like in terms of infrastructure, there’s always this kind of like too big to fail sort of thing that happens, you know, Site C dam and all that. But there’s also this localness that we’re talking about. And so finding a way to connect those local and let’s call it like, place-based infrastructure with a broader kind of economic agenda and something that’s too big to fail, let’s put it that way. And that sort of definitely surpasses political timelines. You know, people have to accept it.

Mary W. Rowe Maybe we call it ‘too many to fail”. 

Brian McBay Too many …

Mary W. Rowe … because …

Brian McBay We’re not outnumbered, we’re under-organized kind of. That’s like a Malcolm X … and Chinatown is similar. You think of Chinatowns and the history of Chinatowns. I mean, these are places divested. They had everything against them. And so much of it was about collective willingness to work together. Economic systems. And I do think it is about inclusive economic projects and property rights in Canada, especially in Vancouver and in places like Vancouver, has become more and more like stuck in this vicious cycle of extraction, that is about like, you know, that real estate speculation. So I can’t help but think, especially the housing crisis, does need to be derived from those sources of revenue, you know, those speculative sources more than from other areas. But, you know, we’re talking about other types of infrastructure where the revenues come from. But, you know, tax the source of revenue. That’s kind of the name of it. And if we can break up monopolies, like Diane’s talking about with some of the kind of corporate side of things, I think that’s also really critical to getting people feeling … Like there’s this lack of incentive to want to do anything in the city because high cost of living, this idea of property is no longer inclusive. You know, it really was an inclusive economic institution. Now we’re really in this tough situation where 50% of the people in Vancouver are landlords, another 50% are renters, and they’re having … one of them is making money off the other one. You’re sort of seeing that the scale is tipping. You can’t really have a culture of economic innovators where your tenure is under threat every day.

Jason Reynar Yeah. Mary, I think of communities that have contacted me and say, you know, in Ontario at least, you know, we’re prohibited from providing bonuses to corporations. You know, the legislation doesn’t allow us to do this. And of course, there’s all kinds of ways that you can do it. And ta incremental financing is one of those ways where you say, “listen, you know, we need the kind of development that we want and there will be tax revenue that will come from that in the future. And so how do we pull that back and say, okay, we’re going to actually activate that revenue source now?” But people get very squeamish about it, right? Squeamish about it because they think, well, we’re borrowing from the future and this is very concerning. But to your point, we need to sort of break stuff and then fix it.

Mary W. Rowe Well, I do think we need a bunch of tools, like there’s no single solution. So let me move you to another conversation, which is local economies, if I could, because I think it’s tied to housing. What kinds of mechanisms can you imagine? I mean, we could be overwhelmed with money. And, you know, it’s only a matter of time before people on the chat have started talking about the C word, you know, do we need constitutional change? But I want to move us back into the very practical, what do you see? So, Andy, what are you thinking about in HRM, about boosting the local economy? How are we going to survive … CCUTech is on the call, we’ve got BIAs from across the country that are in listening today. Peterborough, you’ve got a main street that’s hugely challenged. I know London is in that situation? I know Edmonton, I know Calgary, I know where we are with Kelowna. We have it across the country, main street retail and small business, which employs 80% of Canadians, is at risk. Thoughts on how to strengthen the local economic fabric, particularly in whatever is ahead for us.

Andy Fillmore And I’m glad Sue Utech is on the call. She will hold me to account if I get any of this wrong, but we … Halifax is in a good position – we continue to grow rapidly. Our population was growing by between 2 and 4% per year recently. But that doesn’t necessarily translate into a really great environment for our small businesses and so forth. Our downtown, although in a renaissance, the renaissance has slowed and we are seeing, you know, post-COVID spending patterns, people staying at home, empty office towers. And still some challenges to Main Street with peripheral big box retailers and that kind of thing. So there’s still a lot of work to do to support our core. The work that the core needs support in is also … The challenges are compounded by the congestion that I’ve mentioned a few times now, because of our growth, there’s an unprecedented number of cars on the road. We happen to be at a moment in our transit systems life cycle where it’s not delivering the service that people need. So ridership is not where it needs to be. There was a, you know, so that’s preventing people from coming downtown. People are choosing instead to go to the places in the periphery that have parking lots.

Mary W. Rowe Well, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about that because I think you’re not alone in that challenge. If, in fact, we’re repurposing lots of commercial space, if we had hub and spoke transit systems historically. Now suddenly you’re saying we got to rearrange that and create more layers of sort of transit connectivity that is less down to the hub and more … Is that what you’re saying? How do we actually turn that wheel around?

Andy Fillmore Well, every city is different. It all has to do with the existing road infrastructure, the transit infrastructure, the geography, where the water is, where the ocean is and rivers and all that. But Halifax is very constrained by those things. It’s kind of like if you imagine a hand with water in between your fingers. We’re kind of trying to build systems on the fingers, so it’s going to be challenging. So we have a big transition to a bus rapid transit system in our future with dedicated rights of way getting busses out of the same lane space that …

Mary W. Rowe And more flexibility.

Andy Fillmore And much more flexibility. And I must say, I’m extremely enthused by our premier talking in his recent reelection to a super majority government, about light rail. I had kind of given up hope on light rail because of the cost and timelines and all that, but very buoying to hear our Premier talking about the importance of light rail and his provincial transportation agency, the Joint Regional Transportation Agency, is going to be releasing its report and its intention in the next month or two. So a lot of people waiting on the edge of our seats here to see where that will lead. But the mobility piece of our municipality is absolutely critical to its prosperity, to getting people to class on time, to their shifts, on time, to moving goods and services on time. And all of that right now is severely congested and slowed.

Mary W. Rowe So I’m starting to riff on some alliteration here. So we’re talking about money, we’re talking about mechanisms to attract money. Different kinds of mechanisms make money smaller, different sources, different ways of allocating it, different ways of collecting it … we’ve got some suggestions there about how we actually could start looking at income taxes. There’s a whole bunch of things, different mechanisms. And then you’ve just raised, Andy, mobility. All “M” words. So: money, mechanisms, mobility, what else in 2025? Diane, over to you. What do we need to … it doesn’t have to be an M-word, I’m not putting you on the spot. But  I’ll find one. But what else do you think we should be trying to double down on? What do we need to watch for?

Diane Therrien Well, I mean, again, I think at the municipal level, there’s so many challenges. But ultimately it’s like we talk about money and we talk about all of these things, but like if we don’t spend the money now to deal with these challenges, it just gets compounded – you know, more expensive, more gridlock, more whatever it is. And when we talk about climate change, you know, we need to move the conversation away, like, how are we going to pay for it? Because if we don’t pay for it, the implications and the repercussions are going to be like wildly detrimental. And we see this play out in LA and we see this play out in other places where with flooding and fires and all of those things and, you know, living in south central Ontario, I mean, one of the places that’s like very shielded from the worst of those knock on wood, but like ultimately as a society, if we’re not putting that money in now, like the cost is, you know, species extinction, like really … so, like, really … we need to move away from this. And part of that is with politics again, in election cycles, you know, four year terms like there’s not an ability for folks to really try to campaign on like a 20 year vision.

Mary W. Rowe Okay. So let’s can we … I’m going to add another  I’m going to talk about Mobilize. Do you like it so far? S

Diane Therrien Yeah, there you go.

Mary W. Rowe Can we move folks away from relying on electoral structures. [Yes[. And move us more into alliances?

Diane Therrien Yes. And I think we’ve seen a lot of that play out when, you know, there is a saying about like when a natural disaster happens, communities come together. Communities, individuals on the ground are the ones collecting and donating masks, water, food, shelter, pet food, whatever it is, because the community always will move faster than government, always, always, always. I was there and they’re not known for moving fast. In Covid there was some of that. It proved that all levels of government can come together and get shit down quickly when they want to. So the type of energy and like combined focus was spent on whether it’s housing, opioids, climate change …

Mary W. Rowe All of it …

Diane Therrien It could get done. It could get done. It just needs that political will and leadership.

Sadhu Johnston So, Mary, the other M if we’re going for M series is … multi-solving

Mary W. Rowe Yeah, multi-solving …

Sadhu Johnston Cities do not have the luxury to do one thing to solve one problem. Right? We really like and I think that’s happening more and more. You know, Brian was talking about some of the things that 221A is doing, solving lots of different challenges through the kind of arts and culture lens. And so I just think that like, you look at what Brian’s done in Chinatown and I just. …

Sadhu Johnston Anyway, I would say multi-solving is something that just needs to be on all of our minds with everything that we do. How many problems can I solved with this one thing I’m going to be working towards.

Mary W. Rowe And never be satisfied with an investment that only solves one problem. It’s got to … So you don’t just build a bridge anymore. It’s also going to be a transit hub and it’s got to have some affordable housing and it should have a cultural space and should have some retail. And we know … we probably instinctively know what we should be doing here. Can I, I’m going to add another M, which is what Jason spoke to and which I think Brian is in fact exemplifying … Models. Let’s create more models of smart initiatives that can happen at the hyperlocal level. The one you talked about, the cell towers. Can we elevate? I think that’s what CUI should be about in 2025, is how do we amplify the models – they can be quite modest. another M …  they can be quite modest, but then other folks literally say, well, I can adapt that, make that happen at different scale.

Sadhu Johnston And our favorite M …

Mary W. Rowe Tell me …

Sadhu Johnston Mary … Mary Rowe

Jason Reynar Magnificent. I think it’s significant, actually …

Sadhu Johnston Magnificent Mary.

Jason Reynar Magnificent Mary …

Sadhu Johnston You’ve done a good job, pulling it all together.

Mary W. Rowe Let’s just be clear that there’s no consensus on that. But I do think that, you know … It’s interesting if we go full circle back to the beginning and what Diane was reinforcing, really interesting uncertainty, really pressing on the sense of uncertainty, could we find – if you ground yourselves in your community, in your local, can we turn this into a time of opportunity? Can we somehow navigate … You know what I mean? When everything is up in the air, does it give you a window to try some stuff. Andy?

Andy Fillmore Well, you caught me looking dreamily out the window as you said that.

Mary W. Rowe What were you dreaming on?

Andy Fillmore I was dreaming about the fact that we did just have a change election in our municipality. You know, as people on the call will know, we had an excellent and very, very well-loved mayor for the last 12 years who was elected in 2012 – at a time when the world was very different. The challenges and opportunities before us were very different. And he’s gone on to a great new thing. He’s now the lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia. But the world has changed. And so this was a change election. And I have to believe, I’m naturally an optimist. I have to believe that there is opportunity in this moment of change, that we can strike a different deal with our provincial governments on how we manage the costs of running our municipalities and how, and at the same time still remain a city that is attractive to people around the world for all kinds of investments, whether it’s defense and peacekeeping, or a battery center at Dalhousie or an oceans innovation center. All these things are happening here and so much more is possible. So I’m very optimistic about the future and that the changes we need to make will accelerate positive change.

Mary W. Rowe We’re getting lots of people in the chat responding to the M challenge, with their own M-words. I’m going to ask each of you just in 15 seconds, any last words? Does not have to be an M-word about the outlook for 2025. Brian, next to you.

Brian McBay Yeah, I think we have to speak to economic incentives, I guess, in the next year. And that’s going to be, from a culture standpoint, an opportunity for reconfiguring this idea of culture as just charity. Because I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be funding people, you know, in prisons, learning how to explore culture in a different way, you know, can integrate back into society. But I am saying there is a need for us to imagine, you know, culture as integrated into everyday life.

Mary W. Rowe Great, Jason.

Jason Reynar I think the pandemic showed us that we do well with a crisis and we can innovate. And let’s use this crisis to innovate and create new ways of doing things.

Mary W. Rowe Sadhu

Sadhu Johnston Dialog and openness to differences. You know, I think it’s been brought up a number of times by Brian and Diane and others. If we can’t talk to each other around our differences, we’re doomed. And so I think just more ways to have open dialog. Tim and others in the chat have said the same thing. Like we have different opinions, that doesn’t matter. We all care about this country. We care about our communities, you know, the vast majority of us want to do good things in the world. So we should be able to talk to each other and find a path forward despite our differences.

Mary W. Rowe Last word to you Dianne …

Diane Therrien Yeah, I think, you know, we’ve got to be, again, organized in our communities to fight for the well-being of our communities because all of these things are related to that, you know, And without it, we’re on our own, and things don’t get done.

Mary W. Rowe Yeah, unless we focus. So moral of the story, all of this matters. Thank you for joining us. We’ll see you on February 6th. We’re going to talk about economic development and how municipal councils are leading that across the country. But, you know, we’ll be grounded in the real, we have to be grounded on what’s practical, and my last word is that … I read somewhere people are promoting this idea that hope is a muscle. So let’s all exercise our muscles together. And thanks for joining us for CityTalk. Brian, great to see you. Thanks, Jason. Thanks. Sadhu and thanks, Diane. Thank you Mayor Fillmore. And on it goes. 2025 is ahead of us. We’re going to exercise our muscles. Thanks for being part of this conversation for CityTalk. See you in a few weeks.

Jason Reynar Thanks all.

Sadhu Johnston Thanks. Marvelous. Mary, Great work.

Mary W. Rowe By you all.